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Force Trim Improvement?


ump104

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First, thank you for all the hard work on the AH-64.  I know that we as players can be really negative, but honestly in the grand scheme of things we have nothing to complain about.  We get to pretend to be pilots for one of the most impressive helicopters of all time, and that wasn't possible even a few years ago.  Even with all of the little issues we run into, it's a phenomenal module and it brings a lot of joy to all of us

I run a VirPil CM3 in a "dead stick" configuration with the hard-centering cams as my cyclic.  I absolutely love the stick, but when it comes to interacting with the trim system in the Apache, it leaves a lot to be desired.  I'm sure other people have been having similar issues, and I'm sure that they will become more common as more and more companies and people go to a "dead stick" configuration.

I have tried all 3 FTR options (instant, center, and no springs).  They all have pretty severe limitations, and none of them are really great.  The center-trimmer mode is the most useful, but if I'm playing in VR, even with the hard-centering cams it is difficult to get it centered quickly, thus causing a lot of frustration.

I'm wondering if there are any plans for a fourth option, where you can press and hold the FTR-up button to disengage the magnets so that the cyclic can be moved freely without it making any changes to the flight surfaces?  Once the cyclic is in a position that is more comfortable, the button could be released, which would reengage the magnets.

In other words:

  1. Fly the aircraft and trim it out the way you want it
  2. Press and hold the FTR-up button
  3. Move the cyclic freely into a more comfortable position
  4. Release the FTR-up button, which will make this the new center (dead zones, curves, and all would be applied to this new position)

In many rotor-wing aircraft, this is how the force trim release system works, and I'm not sure if it would be possible to implement in DCS for the AH-64.  I understand that it may not be 100% accurate compared to the actual aircraft, but neither are any of the other trim systems we have in place.  None of the other trimmer modes do this, and I think that it would add a lot of enjoyment to the module.  I again realize that it may not be exactly true to the actual aircraft, but it might be one of those things that helps overcome the "simisms" of the game.

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14 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Isn’t that the intended mode to be used in your situation where your stick now has no centering springs?

I think the limitation is that your stick has to be held in that position, so the request is a kind of mix of all three options, but instead of centering to re-enable the stick, the new center would instead be somewhere else when FTR is released. I could see adding a mix of similar options, like release FTR, then 1 second later the stick is re-enabled, or on release, move stick to another position and tap to reenable stick.

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59 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Out of curiosity, why doesn’t the “no springs” mode work with a dead stick controller? Isn’t that the intended mode to be used in your situation where your stick now has no centering springs?

It doesn't really work very well. I can't really describe exactly what it does, but it isn't really that useful and doesn't really effectively help you "trim" the aircraft while helping you recenter the physical cyclic.

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4 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Oh, maybe I misunderstood. I thought he was using a base with dry clutches tuned such that the stick does stay where you leave it when you remove your hand. 

I think you understood correctly!  That is what I'm doing.

Right after I responded to your other reply, I thought of a good way to explain what the FTR does without springs (I'll try my best to explain it, using four imaginary quadrants based around the center of the cyclic):

If I move the cyclic into the left upper quadrant and leave it there, the cyclic stays where it is.  If I then press/hold/release the FTR-up switch, DCS now assumes that this is the new center.  The problem, however, is that the new center is still exactly where it was when I released the FTR-up switch, which is still in the upper left quadrant.  So effectively, all I have done is move the new center point to the upper left quadrant, which is relatively useless because it isn't comfortable to hold it there, it isn't really "centered" in the real world, and I lose my dead zone settings and my curve may be limited as well due to the physical components of the real-world stick.

If there was a system where we could just disengage the magnets, move the stick to where we want it, and reengage the magnets, it would be a lot more comfortable and would allow us to actually center the stick where we want it.  This would allow us to make use of dead zones, etc (which are useful even with the extension).

I hope that makes sense?

56 minutes ago, NeedzWD40 said:

I think the limitation is that your stick has to be held in that position, so the request is a kind of mix of all three options, but instead of centering to re-enable the stick, the new center would instead be somewhere else when FTR is released. I could see adding a mix of similar options, like release FTR, then 1 second later the stick is re-enabled, or on release, move stick to another position and tap to reenable stick.

Pretty much.  As it is now, it will recenter the virtual cyclic, but in the real world the stick isn't anywhere close to centered.

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6 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

In your configuration you should choose without springs and remove the deadzone as you will never need to be exactly back to center anyw2.
Why do you even need one with that high end stick?

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

I personally don't use a deadzone, but others might!

I don't mind it being exactly centered, but I would love for it to be relatively centered strictly for comfort.

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I personally don't use a deadzone, but others might!
I don't mind it being exactly centered, but I would love for it to be relatively centered strictly for comfort.
Yes, but in a helicopter this does not make sense, especially if you have a non centering stick. That's my point.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

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17 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Yes, but in a helicopter this does not make sense, especially if you have a non centering stick. That's my point.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

This video here does a good job of what I'm looking for.  I'm not sure if this is how the AH-64 works in real life, but the issue is the program will never be able to accurately represent it so there might have to be some compromise.

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17 hours ago, admiki said:

OP, how much throw you have on your cyclic?

I have 20 cm extension and it is nowhere near uncomfortable for general flying. Yes, cyclic is forward, but not that much.

It looks like you would be happiest with Saitek X65.

This video here does a good job of what I'm looking for.  I'm not sure if this is how the AH-64 works in real life, but the issue is the program will never be able to accurately represent it so there might have to be some compromise.

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I understand what you want to achieve, just not sure it's the best way to fly with your stick.

If you decouple physical stick and in game one, you run into risk of needing trim reset to get full control.

I do agree that it would be nice if all axis tunning is transferred to new center point. OTH, I also feel that tunning is not really needed with high end extended stick like you have.

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 video here does a good job of what I'm looking for.  I'm not sure if this is how the AH-64 works in real life, but the issue is the program will never be able to accurately represent it so there might have to be some compromise.
No worries mate. I know exactly how it works, and that is why I use a force feedback stick for helicopters in DCS.
You have a high-end stick, get an extension. And like I wrote, if your stick is non-centering, choose that as the trim option. Hold the trimbutton when you move the stick, (best way to fly the Ka-50 in any trim mode), and release when you're trimmed.


Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

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