Aerial refueling trouble

[twistking]

Hello,
i'm still struggling to refuel in the Viper, but slowly getting there (i think hope).

I do however sometimes encounter an issue that i did not experience with other aircraft:
Sometimes the boom operator just refuses to do his/her thing: I'm aligned perfectly (judging from the light indicators on the tanker), but just nothing happens. I also do not get a radio call to abort or something. My two theories on what might have happened are that either i have touched the boom while creeping into proper formation which broke the AI procedure, or that i was approaching from too low to trigger/initialize the boom operator going active (when approaching with correct altitude, there is that moment where the boom goes active and "lifts" above your canopy).

I know it's not a lot of information, but i'm sure someone has also encountered that and might give some tips on how to avoid that situation.

Bonus question: Often i find myself looking at the HUD, especially the velocity indicator. I assume that it would be better to focus only on the tanker. Can i just disable the HUD, or do you think that having the HUD on is helpful during certain phases?

[VarZat]

You might have stay in contact position for a while for it connect, be patient.

I would leave the HUD on but instead shift your focus to the lights and/or the location of the engines in your peripheral vision.

[twistking]

12 minutes ago, VarZat said:

You might have stay in contact position for a while for it connect, be patient.

I would leave the HUD on but instead shift your focus to the lights and/or the location of the engines in your peripheral vision.

roger. will try to be more patient.

[rob10]

Any chance the tanker is out of fuel?  Unfortunately it gives no indication that it's out of fuel other than stopping communicating.  Not likely this if you're running into it regularly, but something else that can cause the symptom.

[Ignition]

6 hours ago, twistking said:

Hello,
i'm still struggling to refuel in the Viper, but slowly getting there (i think hope).

I do however sometimes encounter an issue that i did not experience with other aircraft:
Sometimes the boom operator just refuses to do his/her thing: I'm aligned perfectly (judging from the light indicators on the tanker), but just nothing happens. I also do not get a radio call to abort or something. My two theories on what might have happened are that either i have touched the boom while creeping into proper formation which broke the AI procedure, or that i was approaching from too low to trigger/initialize the boom operator going active (when approaching with correct altitude, there is that moment where the boom goes active and "lifts" above your canopy).

I know it's not a lot of information, but i'm sure someone has also encountered that and might give some tips on how to avoid that situation.

Bonus question: Often i find myself looking at the HUD, especially the velocity indicator. I assume that it would be better to focus only on the tanker. Can i just disable the HUD, or do you think that having the HUD on is helpful during certain phases?

You probably had some different speed that's why the boom didn't connect, you have to be stable without speed differences.

Always the HUD on and showing fuel state

[Theodore42]

7 hours ago, twistking said:

Sometimes the boom operator just refuses to do his/her thing: I'm aligned perfectly (judging from the light indicators on the tanker), but just nothing happens. I also do not get a radio call to abort or something.

Check back your replay and you might find that despite being in the correct position you're still wobbling around such that the boom operator is chasing your fuel receptacle (?) around. There is a lot of room for play even in the correct position according to the lights.

I suggest that when the lights indicate to maneuver, don't follow the lights. Instead, look at the tanker and fly in formation with it to the position the lights are indicating. When the lights say you're good, just look at the tanker itself and stick to it, inch for inch (MAXIMUM FOCUS at this point). If you watch the replay you'll see the boom move to you to connect and this takes time. Once you make contact you can chill a little and float around a bit, probably focusing on the throttle as you start to take on pounds.

[skywalker22]

Air refueling TAKES LOTS of time to master. It took me months of almost daily training to master it. Watching videos won't help you much, you need to get the feeling by your self, the feeling of the speed and the positioning of your self underneath the tanker. When you are there, make sure you observe the whole picture so you know if you are at the same speed as the tanker is, and keep an eye on the PDI (pilot director lights) to make sure you are in the sweet spot. Not easy to master, take lots of time. Just keep on practicing. At start try to do that in the straight line, after that you can start practicing also in the turn, which put air-refueling on another level (speciually flying through the clouds).

[WHOGX5]

14 hours ago, twistking said:

Hello,
i'm still struggling to refuel in the Viper, but slowly getting there (i think hope).

I do however sometimes encounter an issue that i did not experience with other aircraft:
Sometimes the boom operator just refuses to do his/her thing: I'm aligned perfectly (judging from the light indicators on the tanker), but just nothing happens. I also do not get a radio call to abort or something. My two theories on what might have happened are that either i have touched the boom while creeping into proper formation which broke the AI procedure, or that i was approaching from too low to trigger/initialize the boom operator going active (when approaching with correct altitude, there is that moment where the boom goes active and "lifts" above your canopy).

I know it's not a lot of information, but i'm sure someone has also encountered that and might give some tips on how to avoid that situation.

Bonus question: Often i find myself looking at the HUD, especially the velocity indicator. I assume that it would be better to focus only on the tanker. Can i just disable the HUD, or do you think that having the HUD on is helpful during certain phases?

As no-one has given you an answer about how the DCS boom tanker actually works when it comes to connecting, I will do so now. There are two factors at play:

Factor #1 is your position relative to the tanker. The reason this is important is because in DCS the tanker will keep the boom extended half way before you connect. He will not extend the boom to connect to you but he will retract it, so you have to come to him. This means that even if both position lights are green and centered, if you're refueling port is in the further away half of the green and center area, you will not get a connect. The way to solve this is to make sure you keep moving forward so you know that the tanker can reach you with the boom without extending it more than half way. My preferred way of doing it is to simply keep the Up/Down lights green and centered, while you just go one notch closer than center on the Fore/Aft light to be sure that he can reach you. As soon as you get a connect, you can move back to a fully centered position.

Factor #2 is your speed relative to the tanker. The boom operator will move the boom quite slowly, so if you have a even just a few knots of speed relative to the tanker it'll probably be enough for the boom never to catch up to you. So once you know you're in a good position, based on the info for Factor #1, then you need to slow down and maintain a similar speed to the tanker for enough time so that the boom operator can move in for the connect.

And like others have mentioned, it's always useful to look at the replay where you can see exactly what's happening at any given time.

EDIT: And about the HUD, for the love of god, don't look at it. Just look at the tanker fuselage to be able to judge relative movement and look at the position lights to judge which relative movements you need to make. There's no reason to turn off the HUD, but you shouldn't look at it either. Every millisecond you spend looking at the HUD will delay any corrections you make when you eventually see yourself moving out of position. If you start slowing down for example, you should be able to react to that by adding more thrust before the position lights show you moving out of position.

Edited May 25, 2023 by WHOGX5

[twistking]

thanks to everyone for all the feedback. will try again tonight...

just one more question. what is the correct DCS procedure when i accidentaly lost the connection to the boom? the aircraft itself doesn't seem to care (in the a-10c f.e. you have to toggle the refueling door switch -if i remember correctly- to make the jet ready for another go at it).
do i have to radio the tanker after an accidental disconnect, or will the operator just try reconnecting when i'm back in alignment?

i still loose connection quite often and until now, i have always "aborted" refuelling via radio and reinitiated it, just to be safe. is this neccessary though?

[skywalker22]

You don't need to do or press anything, just position your self back to "center" position by looking at the positioning lights to turn green (up/down, and left/right).

And btw, turn fuel state on your DED (press List and then 2 on ICP), so you will know how much fuel is in and how much is still left to fill into your aircraft.

[Exorcet]

The F-16 is pretty easy to refuel, you just need to be in the right place and everything else is automatic. The boom operator in DCS can be slow. Check external views if you feel like you're not doing anything wrong, you may see the boom very slowly getting into position. In my experience if you connect cleanly the first time, things go well. Reconnecting can be slow.

 

I find the HUD helpful because the speed tape can warn you if you're accelerating very slightly, before hooking up you can also use this to gauge what fuel flow you need to keep up with the tanker, which is also useful.

[skywalker22]

2 more things to mention: It was mentioned not to look on the HUD, but what I do, is constantly looking at the air speed of the aircraft (on left side of the hud), and the fuel flow gage, which is just bellow the DED, to keep my aircraft at the same speed as the tanker (+as mentioned before, visual inspection of the tanker and positioning lights on the tanker). You have to be quite multitasking in refueling in DCS, since the boom it self still does not work as IRL, which actually hold you on to it.

[Willdass]

I made a short video a few weeks ago giving some tips I've picked up while practicing, including how to get a good starting position. Check it out if you want @twistking: 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Willdass

[Aoi Kaze]

It took me months to realise you have to make your last call "ready pre-contact" to the tanker when you are really, really close; almost in position. When you're not, it replies something like "resuming contact" or something similar. Keep on getting closer until he replies "cleared contact" and then you will see the hose starts moving to try and catch you. Until I noticed that, I was terribly frustrated (not that I'm not anymore :D), because I was in position but it never refueled me.

"Cleared contact" is the key, man.

[Willdass]

Matching the speed is also important to not get the "return pre contact" call from the tanker.  If I match my speed with the tanker before I report "ready pre contact" I usually get "cleared contact" even if I'm a few hundred feet aft of the tanker.

[twistking]

thanks for all the replies.
i think my main problem was that i thought having the green lights was enough. i was still wobbling (within the margin) though. yesterday i managed to minimize the wobble, was patient enough for the boom to finally connect and got several thousands pounds of gas before disconnecting. disconnect was accidental still, but i think i'm slowly getting there nevertheless.

[rob10]

22 minutes ago, twistking said:

thanks for all the replies.
i think my main problem was that i thought having the green lights was enough. i was still wobbling (within the margin) though. yesterday i managed to minimize the wobble, was patient enough for the boom to finally connect and got several thousands pounds of gas before disconnecting. disconnect was accidental still, but i think i'm slowly getting there nevertheless.

Hang in there.  When you're learning AAR it usually progresses from just missing, to connect followed by near immediate disconnect, followed by connecting long enough to get some fuel, followed (eventually) by connecting and getting a full tank.  It's a great feeling when you get to that point the 1st time.

[_SteelFalcon_]

Not to mention the period where you eventually use the dogfight mode and blow the tanker away  

[davidrbarnette]

Air to air refueling in DCS is a level of masochism that shouldn't be purposely sought out by any sane person.

[fagulha]

10 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

Air to air refueling in DCS is a level of masochism that shouldn't be purposely sought out by any sane person.

I don´t agree with you. AAR is relatively easy, no basket/hose physics are simulated for example. But i fly only in VR and it gets easier in my case (you get a better awareness of your surroundings), i just follow the PDL´s.

[SickSidewinder9]

Pay attention to whether or not you get another "return pre contact" in the middle of trying to refuel.  You may have to tell them "ready precontact" again to get him to put his probe in your hole (huh huh).  I have had this problem with hose and drogue too.  The probe would clip right through the drogue unless I hit "ready..." again.

I recommend binding it to hotas if you can because when you drift backward enough - and it's not much - you get "return pre contact".

 

Ps: I also noticed that once you get the boom connected the first time, it's easier to get it connected subsequent times when you disconnect by accident.

After that, it's just practice practice practice.  250KIAS at 20,000' is a good practice setup in the mission editor.   Orbit is fine.  Or race track.  Remember that you have to put the speed in as ground speed in the waypoint, which means you have to look up conversion .

[rob10]

8 hours ago, davidrbarnette said:

Air to air refueling in DCS is a level of masochism that shouldn't be purposely sought out by any sane person.

Speak for yourself.  I'm disappointed when AAR isn't part of a mission.  One of the funnest and most satisfying things you can do in DCS (and I fly flat screen rather than VR).

[davidrbarnette]

10 hours ago, fagulha said:

I don´t agree with you. AAR is relatively easy, no basket/hose physics are simulated for example. But i fly only in VR and it gets easier in my case (you get a better awareness of your surroundings), i just follow the PDL´s.

 

2 hours ago, rob10 said:

Speak for yourself.  I'm disappointed when AAR isn't part of a mission.  One of the funnest and most satisfying things you can do in DCS (and I fly flat screen rather than VR).

Hey, to each their own; it is what it is. I really don’t enjoy it. DCS’s physics for formation flying aren’t very good, and being enjoyable or not doesn’t change that the AI aircraft is flying on a proverbial “rail” holding a perfect speed and altitude. Not to mention that when refueling a Navy or Marine bird (F-18, F-14), the basket can magically pass through the aircraft (not an immersion-breaker at all, VR or otherwise). 

[SickSidewinder9]

You pretty much have to turn off wake turbulence.  For carrier landings too.

After that, it's not so bad.  For me, the boom refueling has gotten fairly easy compared to hose and drogue.  Even with turbulence off; which seems to effect hose and drogue refueling more than boom and receiver.

Focus on the yellow line and the director lights.  DO NOT look at the boom.

[Sarge55]

On 5/30/2023 at 8:24 AM, davidrbarnette said:

Air to air refueling in DCS is a level of masochism that shouldn't be purposely sought out by any sane person.

Oops... Here I thought you were being humorous.  Rats, I'll never get the knack of internet humor.