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Master test stuff


Eagle7907

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I was wondering what the status is of HB finishing up the simulation of the master test stuff like the emergency generator test and such? I like what they have been working on so far and with great improvement, but the functionality of this part of the jet seems to be getting no attention.

 

 

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  • 5 months later...

The first thing you're supposed to do is go fly the thing. Worrying about go through the motions diagnostics for systems that aren't actually modeled to fail is like 1,000th in line well behind Fly a carrier pattern well, win dogfights, and closely behind install a DCSbios driven fan for wind the 20 seconds the canopy is open when loading in and out.

Guess what, the fire loop tests in a PMDG 737 aren't real either. You're complaining the clickey knob on your little tykes Cozy Coupe dash doesn't connect to anything. 

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I'm not sure any module we have so far has the tests modeled that deeply. I assume most of the tests are done in real life because things break or get glitchy, but in DCS we always get a pristine, 100% working jet--until we break it, that is--which makes the tests rather pointless except to kill time while the INS is aligning or something.


Edited by Nealius
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Of course the flight and combat are the first and foremost things that have to be done and working flawlessly but the full procedure of cold start/shutdown including all the tests by the book is a thing each owner would like to go through... at least once 😉 and it's important to make the module fully complete. That's one of the reasons we have full fidelity systems.

I don't agree that systems failures aren't modeled - they are to a degree now (as an option) and there are plans to make them even more detailed with coming F-4E - and these implementations are planned to be shared within all HB modules).

Thanks, @RustBelt for the great idea with fan vs canopy :thumbup:

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14 minutes ago, draconus said:

I don't agree that systems failures aren't modeled

They're modeled from damage, and there's the (buggily implemented) random system failures, but those are in-flight failures and not lighter-weight failures like glitchy hardware or software during startup.

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14 hours ago, RustBelt said:

The first thing you're supposed to do is go fly the thing.

I've had Flaming Cliffs 3 for a long time...

Anyways, I had to start the Tomcat at night just to see the fire detection lights.. so now at least 3 out of the 12 tests work. The major missing one is the emergency generator test. It appears to not be modeled at all. Not like silly little things like emergency generators matter to users that just "go fly the thing." But it's a nice surprise when running the official training mission (which tells you how to do it while you sit there seeing it not work.) Or heaven forbid you crack open the checklist in the official manual.

14 hours ago, Nealius said:

I'm not sure any module we have so far has the tests modeled that deeply.

These are tests that are supposed to be performed on every single startup according to these procedures. If they don't work, the jet is grounded. I think you vastly underestimate the level of detail of other modules if you don't know that their startup testing routines are modeled.

The fire loop tests in the PMDG 737 do their job. Just like the rest of the modeled fire detection and protection system. Including random, user selected, and service based failures. Those tests aren't modeled in the default FSX 737-800, but I am able to understand those are both modeled to a different standard.


Edited by randomTOTEN
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5 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

I think you vastly underestimate the level of detail of other modules if you don't know that their startup testing routines are modeled

I have every DCS module with multiple hours invested in most of them, following what NATOPS and -1 (or -2) checklists I can find. I'm not underestimating anything. I'm looking at this from a realistic perspective, not an idealistic one.

  

5 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

The fire loop tests in the PMDG 737 do their job. Just like the rest of the modeled fire detection and protection system. Including random, user selected, and service based failures. Those tests aren't modeled in the default FSX 737-800, but I am able to understand those are both modeled to a different standard.

Then you should be able to understand that DCS and FSX/Prepar3d/MSFS2020, as well as PMDG products, are all of different standards as well.


Edited by Nealius
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I would love to see the test modeled as well.

I currently omit the "useless" steps, but would rather prefer it would work as per NATOPS, if only for the fact that it might break INS alignmend which was prematurly started by the RIO, knowing nothing is going to happen to it.

It should be part of the "game" that makes me believe I'm a hot Fighter Jockey. I strive more for immersion than anything else, so BITs / Systemtest should be a part of it, at least giving one the choice of doing the full startup / checks procedure with experience the expected results.

 


Edited by Lt_Jaeger
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Here's a nice quote from your own manual.

Quote

To access the normal, unassisted startup, select startup, Jester will then go through his checklist. He will at times ask the pilot if he has completed certain checks or ask for specific tests, this is answered via the Jester menu using the options appearing there. As an example he will start by asking for a comms check which is answered via the Jester menu. Note that after engine startup and EMERG GEN Master test he will ask for what INS alignment to go for, select this via the Jester menu as well.

https://heatblur.se/F-14Manual/dcs.html#assisted-startup

So is this routine also broken? Or are we able to work around this? I guess I'm going to find out..

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58 minutes ago, randomTOTEN said:

So is this routine also broken? Or are we able to work around this?

It's not broken for sure but there may still be a few missing elements or some minor details/messages not consistent with the manual.

You have 4 options:

1. Human RIO - you talk to each other and go on however you like.

2. Jester: no interaction - just go on with your startup checklist, no talking to Jester required, he will do his Job, you do yours - I always go with this one.

3. Jester menu: Startup - interactive - he will ask you for interaction/confirmations.

4. Jester menu: Assisted start - interactive with items highlighted and checklist read out.

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I don’t get why you folks want this. It’s boring, tedious admin stuff. There nothing fun about this in real life, and the plane in DCs (if I’m not mistaken) can’t even fail. 

you’re not flying a real plane, you’re playing a game. Have some fun and lighten up. 
 

PS you should be grateful. You’ve payed something like 50 euros for a great PC game with one of the most realistic and fun modelling of a plane ever. Enjoy it. There’s 10.000 things they should do before fixing stubs. (And only some of those are working on the Turkey. In my view they should prioritise 100 good office parties with plenty of drinks over this)

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2 hours ago, Rhrich said:

Have some fun and lighten up.

I was trying to have some fun in the instant action mission: F-14>Nevada>Cold Start, and getting an introduction to my new virtual jet using https://heatblur.se/F-14Manual/procedures.html >Checklists - Pilot. When I ran into a problem. I wasn't seeing things I was being told I would see.

Okay, I must not be understanding it. So I searched said manual https://heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html which told me I should be seeing these things... but I'm not.

Great.

Okay, lets try the training missions. TRAINING>Basics - Pilot Cold Start. Perfect, exactly what I needed. It will guide me through step by step. Big floating yellow boxes. I can't get this wrong. Okay, nope, not seeing it there. Well shucks, maybe there's some trick I'm missing, I'll search the forum.

Okay here we are. Okay, a bunch of users are coming in here telling me I'm asking for useless stuff. Too deep. Who cares. Just fly the plane.

I'm trying to fly the plane!

3 hours ago, Rhrich said:

PS you should be grateful.

Now I'm getting this.

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3 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

Okay, nope, not seeing it there.

Please, stop whining and do a proper bug report if you care. Did you forget the Early Access info when clicking Buy?

image.png

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/190288-what-is-dcs-world-early-access-amp-open-beta/#comment-190334

[Early Access is an option for you to play this module in an early state, but it will be incomplete with bugs.]

6 hours ago, Rhrich said:

I don’t get why you folks want this. It’s boring, tedious admin stuff. There nothing fun about this in real life, and the plane in DCs (if I’m not mistaken) can’t even fail.

They can: by combat damage, mechanical damage, crew misoperation, ME triggered failures and probability driven failures. And yes, managing systems, clicking around every bit of cockpit is fun for many. We're nerds, remember? If I wanted only pew pew fun, I would definitely choose another product, probably cheaper at that. Of course it's a game, but of a study level flight simulator genre. Hope it answers it for you.


Edited by draconus
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Now I'm being accused of whining. 🙄

I made a single post, which was 1 line. It spawned a 5 post response before I could even reply.

I'm not making a bug report. You all know this is the situation. It's clear in every reply you make. Here's your bug report.

it's from 2019 btw.

 

This isn't a discussion of a bug report, and it isn't in the bug forum. It's about what it's like as a new user that's trying to do the DCS World activities that come with a module. I made a single line venting my frustration and I've since moved on. I think it would be nice if everybody else would too.

And lets not derail this further with calls for redundant bug reports.

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1 hour ago, randomTOTEN said:

I made a single line venting my frustration and I've since moved on.

I see at least 3 posts from you keeping on with the minor bug and module incompleteness. Doesn't look like you moved on. Just saying.

I want it fixed too, if you noticed, it's just about attitude here.

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On 5/26/2023 at 10:50 PM, Eagle7907 said:

I was wondering what the status is of HB finishing up the simulation of the master test stuff like the emergency generator test and such? I like what they have been working on so far and with great improvement, but the functionality of this part of the jet seems to be getting no attention.

Afaik the status is that it's still on the todo list. It has always been the intention that in the finished product you'd be able to run the tests that are part of the checklist for startup.

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Given that you're implementing an elaborate system where those tests will possibly not check out OK 100% of the time, I sure hope it'll get done at some point before Tomcat is out of EA. Would also be nice if Jester reported all lamps illuminating when you test them.

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8 hours ago, draconus said:

 

They can: by combat damage, mechanical damage, crew misoperation, ME triggered failures and probability driven failures. And yes, managing systems, clicking around every bit of cockpit is fun for many. We're nerds, remember? If I wanted only pew pew fun, I would definitely choose another product, probably cheaper at that. Of course it's a game, but of a study level flight simulator genre. Hope it answers it for you.

 

And some do it for nostalgia. 
But I grant you it’s interesting. Though you will never be able to get a machine trouble seeking simulator to work without a scent-machine. 

I took the original question to be regarding start up procedures, I apologise if I misunderstood. Agree some troubleshooting of inflight failures is interesting, though I think it’s fine as is in the Tomcat

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