MiG-17PF

[dcn]

Since there's already MiG-15bis in DCS,I think MiG-17F doesn't have much difference,wish for a MiG-17PF.

[Zius]

Sorry, but I disagree.

 

The MiG-17F might be the best dogfighter in DCS. The PF will be overweight and with a mostly useless radar.

I also think that Razbam made the wrong choice with their choice of MiG-19P model, they should have gone for a version without radar, like MiG-19S.

 

Do you have the MiG-19? I think the radar of the MiG-19P is the same RP-1 Izumrud as in the MiG-19PF. Would appreciate to hear your opinion on it.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Zius

[some1]

PF was only a stopgap interceptror until better and more suitable aircraft were developed. Intended to find enemy bombers at night, and not much else.

F and its derivatives were the workhorse variant of many armies around the world for many years. And we're getting SRD1 gun radar, that's enough for Dcs combat scenarios.

[Alexmarine]

Agree with Zius and some1, Razbam fumbled with doing the MiG-19P instead of the much more common 19S (which could have been used also as the widely exported J-6)

The plain MiG-17F is perfect for many scenarios and the additional pylons are something that many nations, that couldn't get better fighter-bombers, added to their 17s. The Egyptian rockets are also fine given we are getting a Sinai map... Now we only need an early Mirage III for those guns-only six-day war dogfights 

[dcn]

I said this more from the perspective of a consumer.I mean I hope I buy a module and get MiG-17F and MiG-17PF.

5小时前，Zius说：

Do you have the MiG-19?

Yeah,I have.

5小时前，Zius说：

MiG-19PF. 

Do you mean MiG-17PF?The radar of MiG-19P in DCS is RP-5 and the radar of MiG-17PF is RP-2 according to Wikipedia.

[probad]

10 hours ago, dcn said:

doesn't have much difference

i wish i could make you do the work and have you come back and tell me if its not much difference

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

If it were only so easy to switch over to an entirely different variant.

[dcn]

6小时前，probad说：

i wish i could make you do the work and have you come back and tell me if its not much difference

Of course I knew the differences.

Edited June 3, 2023 by dcn

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Besides, you all are missing the most important point here, MiG-17PF variants are… really fugly . Who wants that .

[FlankerFan35]

17F has the looks, the performance and the pedigree I think, PF is interesting but 19P is close enough if you want a *mostly* useless radar.

[Zius]

On 6/3/2023 at 2:44 PM, dcn said:

Do you mean MiG-17PF?The radar of MiG-19P in DCS is RP-5 and the radar of MiG-17PF is RP-2 according to Wikipedia

Yeah, I meant 17PF and 19P. I read somewhere (some non-authorative source) that the radar in both were the same (RP-1) but I may well be wrong. In any case I assume that they are mostly similar though and equally mostly useless (though technically interesting), except, maybe, for bomber interception. Which in itself is problematic since we are missing period bombers (B-29 etc.) except the B-52 (in a wrong version).

The technically interesting part is sufficiently covered by the MiG-19P for those interested in early Soviet radars.

But since you have the MiG-19, how often do you use the radar? Do you find it interesting or useful? Or, are you, like me, just somewhat disappointed in the MiG-19P's flight characteristics?

Edited June 4, 2023 by Zius

[dcn]

42分钟前，Zius说：

 I read somewhere (some non-authorative source) that the radar in both were the same (RP-1) but I may well be wrong.

Mig-19P's radar was RP-1 originally then upgraded to RP-5. The radar of MiG-17PF seems controversial,some sources said the radar was RP-1 then upgraded to RP-5.

53分钟前，Zius说：

But since you have the MiG-19, how often do you use the radar? Do you find it interesting or useful? Or, are you, like me, just somewhat disappointed in the MiG-19P's flight characteristics?

I use DCS more as a study sim,so I don't care much about whether it is useful.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1 hour ago, dcn said:

 

I use DCS more as a study sim,so I don't care much about whether it is useful.

That's fair, but at the same time, it seems like an experience you can presently get.

We just have to take what we can get. It seems they wanted to do a 17AS so we could have Atolls, but they couldn't find the documentation. Given that the 17F has civilian operators that would be more than overjoyed to talk about it, it just makes the greatest sense to do.

[Dragon1-1]

The -17F is probably the best choice, really, seeing as it was the variant that did most of the work in Vietnam. Well, that and the J-5, but they were very similar. A lightweight day fighter, ridiculously nimble, with an afterburner and enough guns to make even modern fighters think twice. They also fought in Six Day War. The PF was much less widespread.

[Guest]

It is many years before you can buy it anyway, and that is if it will be finished at all.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Hope not so many, this module is official third party now but we've known about it since a year or so, maybe more. Now it's quite more complete than back then despite WIP .

[Stackup]

7 hours ago, Razor68 said:

It is many years before you can buy it anyway, and that is if it will be finished at all.

Flight model is 95% complete, external and cockpit models are complete, cockpit is being textured, and exterior is ready for texturing.  That doesn't sound like "many years" to me.  At any rate, Red Star said early on into development that they would release it even if they didn't get 3rd party status so I highly doubt they stop development at this point.

[Dragon1-1]

It helps the -17F is a lot like a warbird in terms of complexity. No missiles, no search radar, no MFDs, just a gunsight with a rangefinder. No complex systems to speak of. That said, texturing will definitely take a while, and there is enough systems modeling to do, so I wouldn't expect a release in under a year.

[WarbossPetross]

8 часов назад, Dragon1-1 сказал:

It helps the -17F is a lot like a warbird in terms of complexity. No missiles, no search radar, no MFDs, just a gunsight with a rangefinder. No complex systems to speak of. That said, texturing will definitely take a while, and there is enough systems modeling to do, so I wouldn't expect a release in under a year.

TBF there ain't much to do with the search radar and missiles on our MiG-19 except to turn them on and off

[Dragon1-1]

Well, the search radar also needs to detect targets and false contacts, which is a big chunk of work, and missiles, even simple ones, need a lot of code either way. You do save quite a bit of dev time by not having to tweak radar behavior or missile lock logic.

[303_Kermit]

On 6/3/2023 at 6:29 AM, dcn said:

Since there's already MiG-15bis in DCS,I think MiG-17F doesn't have much difference,wish for a MiG-17PF.

Sometimes it's better to remain silent

It was 1965. There are 3'rd gen fighters coming into Vietnam, when VPAF becomes couple first outdated MiG-17. There are no great effects at first. Nobody expects it. Pilots are not properly trained, and there's lack of proper tactics. Soon arrive a North Korea voluntears. They bring own tactic, and experience. At the beginning VPAF posess only 17 fighters. They're send against hundreds of US fighters and bombers. Very soon surprised USN and USAF pilots discovered , that one can't outturn, can't outdive, and can't outclimb a Gen I fighter. Somehow 6 planes is sometimes enough to force 200 planes mission to abort. Soon more MiG-17 comes to VPAF. Losses build up. Then came 23 August 1967. 10 PLAF MiG-17F lead by Nguyễn Nhật Chiêu intercepts 52 US Fighters led by famous Col. Robin Olds.
USA looses 3 Aircraft. 3 airman are captured and 2 others are dead. A story seldom told. Isn't it? VPAF costs? 1 damaged MiG-21 (no MiG-17 was scratched, in spite playing a role of a bait)
Colonel Robin Olds learned that Seventh Air Force intelligence had watched North Vietnamese MiG fighters practicing their new tactics for ten days prior to the battle of 23 August, but had not passed that information on to the 8th Tactical Fighter Wing and other units. Thus, it soon became clear to U.S commanders that the reason the North Vietnamese repeatedly stood down their fighter force was because they were working on their new tactic. Between August 1967 and February 1968, the North Vietnamese Air Force achieved a kill ratio of 1.1:1 against the USAF, with the loss of 20 aircraft for 22 victories. In the same period of time, Operation Rolling Thunder had cost the United States approximately $900 million ($5,640 million at 2010 prices) with the loss of more than 700 aircraft.

Something must be done. USAF gives specification for F-4E - they need their guns back. USN comes with another approach. A first group of instructors came to a Miramar California. A place later called a Fightertown. TOP GUN is born.

Compared to MiG-15 - MiG-17 has stiffer wings, and can dive with full thrust without losing wings or steering capability. Bigger thrust gives him such agility , that first USA fighter capable to match its turn rate is... F-16A. If you want to learn more about MiG-17 search in Google for "have doughnut" secret flight tests program. There's also film in YT. See what US pilots told about MiG-17 and you'll understand.

DCS Without MiG-17 isn't complete.

(source of info - Wikipedia and Bill Gunstons "F-4 Phantom II")

Edited June 28, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[dcn]

1小时前，303_Kermit说：

DCS Without MiG-17 isn't complete.

It seems that MiG-17PF isn't MiG-17 in your mind.I didn't say I don't want MiG-17 in DCS.

[303_Kermit]

3 hours ago, dcn said:

It seems that MiG-17PF isn't MiG-17 in your mind.I didn't say I don't want MiG-17 in DCS.

there's many versions of these plane. Quite well known (there's plenty of documentation in Germany and Poland) was Lim-5M / Lim-5P (frontline fighter / Interceptor) Lim-6M/Lim-6bis (ground attack capabilities expanded). an F variant was armed (in a modification used only in CCCP) with 2xK-13 Missiles. a PF (or Polish Lim-5p) was armed with 2xRS-2US (4xRS-2US for Lim-5p). MiG-17F has nothing to do with MiG-15. It looks almost the same, yes. But is longer, has different wings (more swept) different elevator, over 33KN thrust, and G suit installation. It won't be in any way similar to MiG-15... It's like a comparison of WRC car to "wilage racer". 

and one more thing. Lim-5p (MiG-17PF) on foto. do you see a cannon?


Beware what you wish for.

Edited June 27, 2023 by 303_Kermit

[dcn]

1小时前，303_Kermit说：

Beware what you wish for.

I don't need you to tell me what I want.

[foxbat155]

2 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

there's many versions of these plane. Quite well known (there's plenty of documentation in Germany and Poland) was Lim-5M / Lim-5P (frontline fighter / Interceptor) Lim-6M/Lim-6bis (ground attack capabilities expanded). an F variant was armed (in a modification used only in CCCP) with 2xK-13 Missiles. a PF (or Polish Lim-5p) was armed with 2xRS-2US (4xRS-2US for Lim-5p). MiG-17F has nothing to do with MiG-15. It looks almost the same, yes. But is longer, has different wings (more swept) different elevator, over 33KN thrust, and G suit installation. It won't be in any way similar to MiG-15... It's like a comparison of WRC car to "wilage racer". 

and one more thing. Lim-5p (MiG-17PF) on foto. do you see a cannon?

 

Well, lots of false info here.

1. Lim-5M wasn't frontline fighter, but first polish attempt to build a light attack aircraft based on licence MiG-17F version called Lim-5,

2.Lim-6Bis was a final variant of few "light attack aircraft" variations on trials, like Lim-5M, Lim-6,

3.Lim-6M was a Lim-5P (MiG-17PF), rebuild into Lim-6bis standard of light attack aircraft during 70's, radar was removed,

4.Original MiG-17F was NEVER armed with R-3S missiles, few cuban MiG-17 were rebuild localy in order to use those missiles, only some chinese J-5 fighters got chinese copys of R-3S,

5.Polish Lim-5P was, similary like original Soviet PF,  a pure gunfighter, and never used any AA missiles, only limited amount of Soviet PFU's had 4xRS-1U and removed guns, exclusively for Soviet PVO,

6.MiG-17 and then MiG-17F borrowed a lot from MiG-15,

7. On the photo you can see original Soviet MiG-17PF with RP-1 radar, PolAF used about 20 of them, Polish built Lim-5P was based on the later PF wariant with RP-5 radar.