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Reset trim does more than reset trim?


DragonRR

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Basically this is pretty hard to explain without going into massively boring detail so I’ll try to be brief...

 

Background:

I have roughly 40+ hrs of sim flight time and would consider myself reasonably competent. I can land on Farps/buildings/carriers. Perform flared turns, circle strafe to a reasonable level and so on. I use FD quite a lot but use NO FD for moving longer distances.

 

Issues:

Entering Autohover “too early” seems to cause two possible effects, the first is the APs flashing and a very unstable KA-50. The second effect is that the KA-50 wants to constantly turn.

Q: Is this realistic behaviour possibly caused by the INU not being aligned or is this a bug?

 

Once in Autohover sometimes Autoturn to target doesn’t work.

Q: Is this caused by the same issue.. that the INU isn’t correctly aligned?

 

Despite showing the (CTRL-ENTER|) red window which shows my control positions and having everything dead center the KA-50 sometimes acts strangely as if I have (for example) a large amount of rudder applied. It makes no difference (or at least the “oddness” doesn’t go away) when I hold and release the trim button. Despite the fact that the window shows no effect if I hit reset trim, when I hit reset trim the problem goes away...!

Q: Does the reset trim button do more than.... reset trim to the controls and the APs?

 

In a recent short flight I had... ALL of the above happened..I wasn’t in combat, there was no damage. Eventually I switched on FD and headed back to the airfield. However despite switching FD on the KA-50 was extremely hard to control and... I crashed because I just couldn’t get the KA-50 under control despite using FD. Autohover was switched off and the APs were on. I didn't try resetting trim, the ground attacked me before I had chance! :cry: I should point out that I had neutral rudder trim, I had a small amount of forward cyclic trim (all as seen on the red window)

Q: What on earth is going on? Have the above issues caused some kind of “real” issue or is this (and possibly some or all of the above) a bug?

 

Unfortunately I didn’t save the track. I ran the game again later on the same day and didn’t have any issues and nearly didn’t bother posting.. However although I haven’t had all of this happen before in one go I have had some of the issues before (especially the APs flashing and the rotating problem).


Edited by DragonRR
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The trim button also centers your rudder... something that happens to me a lot is my rudder pedals will have a small amount of input on them, and it will get trimmed with the cyclic. I usually correct this by resetting trim and starting trim from scratch.

 

Even a small amount of trim on the rudders can turn your heli in an autohover. Also, I've noticed my saitek pedals will not always be centered at the beginning of the flight; even though they are physically. To counter this i usually fully deflect the pedals before starting the sim....it seems to work.

 

What I would really like to do is build a set of forcefeedback pedals!! Anyone know how??

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What I would really like to do is build a set of forcefeedback pedals!! Anyone know how??

 

I haven't done it yet, but my plan is to buy a Saitek R660 (Force Feedback steering wheel), and mechanically connect it it to some old analog Thrustmaster RCS pedals that I have. I'll have to figure out the proper ratio to "gear it down" and then devise whatever method looks best/easiest to me. It might be gears, it might be pulleys and a belt, or ??? .

 

I believe that particular steering wheel has 270 degrees of full travel, whereas the pedals are obviously a lot less. Once it is mechanically rigged up, just use the steering wheel axis as the rudder control axis input. The old analog potentiometer would not be used at all.

 

I don't know that the Saitek R660 is the best choice, but since I'm already using Saitek controls, it fits into my software setup.

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When you trim you also set the heading that the heli wants to turn to if you have Heading hold on.. this makes the heli turn even though no rudder is seen on the Ctrl-Enter (same goes for bank and pitch hold)...

 

Have you tried it without heading hold on? (I almost never fly with heading hold on because it is to much trouble without FF pedals since you can't feel what is happening)

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Im still at work so have no access to my notes if you enter hover and turn the black shark to a new heading you need to engage and re-engage heading hold. this will keep you pointing in the direction that you need to keep pointing at.

 

when hitting reset trim it will make the BS "buck" untill you retrim again i use this inconjuction with rctrl +enter. If you leave AP and engage FD i get the same issue like you, i just trim and adjust.

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No it wasn't the heading hold, I realise heading isn't shown in the red window but as I said I tried holding the trim down and releasing. Only resetting the trim had an effect. Don't forget that I tried holding trim down which should release the AP.. but it didn't or didn't work as expected. On top of that, as I mentioned, at the end of this flight the heli was fighting my control inputs even when I put FD on.

 

Don't get me wrong. It is possible this was my fault in some way but I really can't think of anything I did or anything I didn't try to fix the issues in flight. The Autoturn to target issue I've had several times not long after taking off.. which is why I'm assuming the INU is causing that issue.

 

and turn the black shark to a new heading you need to engage and re-engage heading hold. this will keep you pointing in the direction that you need to keep pointing at

 

Hmm. This is odd.. I can't remember ever doing the above, doesn't holding trim in and then releasing at the new heading have the same effect? You've got me puzzled!


Edited by DragonRR
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I crashed because I just couldn’t get the KA-50 under control despite using FD. Autohover was switched off and the APs were on. I didn't try resetting trim, the ground attacked me before I had chance! :cry: I should point out that I had neutral rudder trim

 

The first mistake you make - Haven't you got too much used to trim-reset - forget you ever had this option - it is for debugging controls only. However sim developer (coder) should answer your first (topic) question.

 

Second...

Also, if you need to quickly disengage the AP there's a switch that you hold down, IIRC - emergency AP disengage. Use THAT for emergencies, again, do not disable your AP channels. :)

Have you mapped this? It could have saved your life. Note, that AP even on the real aircraft can behave erratically, that is why emergency AP disengage is included by every a/c manufacturer. I must admit DCS is so complex, that it even may unintentionally simulate AP going wild :doh: like in the real thing.

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The first mistake you make - Haven't you got too much used to trim-reset - forget you ever had this option - it is for debugging controls only. However sim developer (coder) should answer your first (topic) question.

 

Second...

 

Have you mapped this? It could have saved your life. Note, that AP even on the real aircraft can behave erratically, that is why emergency AP disengage is included by every a/c manufacturer. I must admit DCS is so complex, that it even may unintentionally simulate AP going wild :doh: like in the real thing.

 

Ok Shamandgg these are reasonable comments:

 

1. Actually I almost never use trim reset.. it was a last resort when everything went wrong. However I DID NOT use it prior to the crash I had used it maybe 15 minutes earlier in the mission when the KA-50 kept spinning when using Autohover. Basically I turned Autohover off, turned the APs off then on, got back to a stable hover, tried Autohover again. Same problem. Turned Autohover off again, reset trim, got back to a stable hover, turned Autohover on. Turned Auto Turn to target on... everything worked normally!

 

I then turned Autohover off and AP altitude hold off. Trimmed to go back to the airfield. The KA-50 was pulling right and rolling right (from memory) despite correcting it kept on doing this. I was getting fairly close to the ground, I turned on FD but the KA-50 kept pulling and rolling right and I couldn't avoid the crash. I should point out that this was the first time I've experienced this issue although something "like" this has happened once before when the only fix was turning the FD on.

 

The mission was one of my own without failures which I use a lot for practice.

 

No I haven't mapped the emergency AP disengage.. however since I don't have failures enabled.. surely the APs shouldn't have failed?

 

The sim is SO complex that it is entirely possible the whole thing was user error or "by design" however it is also possible that there is some bug somewhere... tbh it "felt" like a bug but I'm not more than 60% sure.

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You sure you didn't have your Navigation System in some heading following mode or some such when you did this?

 

Additionally, the Ka-50 can and will fly differently based on airspeed and collective input, just on a 'it'll do this on its own' basis.

 

The Autopilot will fail you any time you abuse its abilities - failures needn't be on. We're talking about 'it can't cope with this input' situations ;)

 

You really need to provide a track in order for us to be able to help you with this problem so, attempt to reproduce your experience in as short a track as you can, and post it up.

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You sure you didn't have your Navigation System in some heading following mode or some such when you did this?

 

Additionally, the Ka-50 can and will fly differently based on airspeed and collective input, just on a 'it'll do this on its own' basis.

 

The Autopilot will fail you any time you abuse its abilities - failures needn't be on. We're talking about 'it can't cope with this input' situations ;)

 

You really need to provide a track in order for us to be able to help you with this problem so, attempt to reproduce your experience in as short a track as you can, and post it up.

 

No I didn't alter the Nav system from the default...

 

Yes I know (assuming I understand you correctly), generally speaking I have to apply or trim in left cyclic at speeds above 100 with my normal loadout.

 

Hmmmm.. well ok but I wasn't doing anything unusual really, I wasn't even travelling quickly.

 

Yes. I flew afterwards with no issues overwriting the temp track and didn't save it.. At the time I just put it down to an "anomaly". However I couldn't get it out of my head :huh:. So I thought I would post.

 

I'll see if I can recreate the issue.

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This is precisely why a track is needed though. If it -is- a bug we need to catch it, but we also need to make sure we can reproduce this, and to be sure it wasn't something you missed also.

 

Thanks ahead of time for the efforts :)

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