Vikhr

[sobek]

I did wonder what the force behind it was due to that, no seatbelts in a tank.

 

Due to there being no collapsible zone on a tank, i would imagine the acceleration to be like hitting a concrete wall (without a car around you, so 50-0 in approx a few centimetres). Those puny tank crew helmets can't save you from such a crash.

[EtherealN]

Only way to know is to gather information from a instance of the Vikhr hitting a tank with a comparable construction and armor. Guessing based on rough comparisons with entirely different weapons ain't going to bring the discussion forward - will just make it a yes-no-yes-no match.

[CE_Mikemonster]

How much does a tank move when it get's hit by a missile with the same enery as a Vikhir?

 

I once read that a tank round carries the same force as a speeding train - not exactly definitive though lol

 

EDIT.. a good point Ethereal :)

 

@ Tharos, sorry mate, a bit confusing I meant the same thing as driving into another leo at 50km/h

Edited February 26, 2009 by CE_Mikemonster

[Kenan]

AMRAAM, eh? :P

 

Vikhr is more powerful than a bunch of RPGs, but not all. Also keep in mind that it is a directed chemical energy weapon - ie. a shaped charge. It's the frag belt that makes it more interesting, but this is probably part of the warhead weight too ;)

 

Of course. Compare the size, weight and the impact speed of the RPG warhead and that of the Vikhr. Those alone are clear enough evidence that there is no real comparison between a shoulder launched weapon and an air-to-ground missile.

 

I've seen RPGs doing only dark stains on Abraams side armor (like those 2D blast textures in FPS shooters). I very much doubt Vikhr would stop there.

 

More like 3-5 seconds :)

Now that's just wishful thinking..:D

[Kenan]

Of course. Compare the size, weight and the impact speed of the RPG warhead and that of the Vikhr.

 

I'd like to correct myself, I was referring to the missile body, not the warhead.

[EtherealN]

You also want to look at the energy transfer method tho, Kenan - I'd suspect that that is even more important than comparative size and speed, especially in a world where we have reactive armors and all such fancy stuff.

 

You do not achieve numbers for a Vikhr just through taking a RPG-7 and multiplying it's speed and weight by the relative difference between the RPG-7 and the Vikhr. It's way more complex than that.

[Yossarian]

Only way to know is to gather information from a instance of the Vikhr hitting a tank with a comparable construction and armor. Guessing based on rough comparisons with entirely different weapons ain't going to bring the discussion forward - will just make it a yes-no-yes-no match.

 

This informations are surely available, but classified.

But the fact that modern anti-tank warheads are nearly at the same weight, tells me something.

If this wouldn`t be enough, they all would have some kilos more.

[sobek]

Of course. Compare the size, weight and the impact speed of the RPG warhead and that of the Vikhr. Those alone are clear enough evidence that there is no real comparison between a shoulder launched weapon and an air-to-ground missile.

 

The vikhr is no KE penetrator, it's weight and speed are probably sufficient enough to leave a little scratch on the tank surface but not more, penetration is achieved by the copper liner of the explosive being turned into a liquid jet and directed at the armor. Penetration of a HEAT round does not really depend on it's kinetic energy at the time of detonation.

[EtherealN]

Yossarian, might also be that it's enough for most targets, and that upping them to take out ALL targets in one shot would be impractical due to lessening the amount of ammunition you can bring along.

 

Point being: speculation is bad, facts are good. We can speculate all we want and it is often interesting, but we need to all realize that speculation is what we're doing. None of us, no matter the arithmetic, can authoritatively claim that we are closer to truth than the others. Until someone brings forward authoritative information to verify the various hypothesees brought forward here, that is.

Edited February 26, 2009 by EtherealN

[GGTharos]

If you just want to do numbers, the velocity difference between the KE round and Vikhr makes the KE round hit harder ;)

[EtherealN]

Actually no surprise when you think about it, since the KE round actually relies on kinetic energy, unless I'm totally lost in translation. :P

[Yossarian]

Yossarian, might also be that it's enough for most targets, and that upping them to take out ALL targets in one shot would be impractical due to lessening the amount of ammunition you can bring along.

 

I don`t believe that. Abrams, Leo and the other modern tanks are the most important targets for the rockets. The developers must reach to kill them.

If it wouldn`t be enough, the Ka-50 would carry 6 killers instead of 12 jokes. :smilewink:

[GGTharos]

Vikhr was perhaps good for first-shot penetration 14 years ago ... realize that it is a weapon that's no longer being manufactured, AFAIK.

 

Also realize that tank front armor is REALLY TOUGH. Tanks have to close in under certain distance to start considering penetration, IIRC.

[Yossarian]

The new european Trigat-LR will put into service in 2010 and also have only 9 kg warhead.

I do not say that they will penetrate 100%, especially not front tank armor, but they should have a good chance to stop the tank.

Otherwise nobody would buy this very expensive new rockets.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Yossarian

[CE_Mikemonster]

When you're talking about energy, HEAT vs Sabot, the HEAT produces its own energy doesn't it?

 

High Explosive, so it doesn't need all of the kinetic energy of a sabot in the first place (hence it's use in Infantry weapons I presume). In terms of simply moving a 65 tonne block of metal though.. Would the kinetic energy slamming into it be greater or less than the explosive power generated by HEAT? Off topic though it is.

 

Now I think it makes perfect sense though to have to shoot 2x Vikhirs at the frontal armour, and -sometimes- the side, thanks for all the input everyone.

[GGTharos]

Correct, HEAT always produces 'the same' energy on impact regardless of distance it's fired at, as opposed to KE.

 

However it is affected more by impact angle and materials than KE IIRC. At least that's how I understood it.

 

In terms of moving a block of metal, I'd go with KE - direct kinetic energy transfer theoretically - not realistically, but theoreticallly.

 

You shoot tanks in the face because you -must-, not because you want to. You WANT to shoot them in the sides or rear. Trigat LR probably uses a top-attack mode, and the armor up there's thinner. You don't necessarily have to keep increasing warhead size ;)

 

Note all the new anti-tank missiles use top-attack strategies.

[Yossarian]

Vikhrs in action:

 

Note all the new anti-tank missiles use top-attack strategies.

 

OK, thats a good argument.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Yossarian

[ARM505]

We need this kind of detail! (When the octuple cores come out I suppose...)

 

From the Steel Beasts armour model (mm RHA vs KE penetrator for T72, if memory serves me correctly)

 

 

Of course, there is modelling for systems damage once the weapon actually makes it through the armour as well...

[GGTharos]

I'll only correct you to say that SB PRO needs that kind of detail. DCS does not :) Not a tank sim! :)

 

It needs more than it has now though, for sure.

[Raploc]

TAn M1A1 took 4 KE penetrators in the face and although two of the crew died, it could have fired back. (It got turned around and mis-identified, it took friendly fire from other m1's)

 

Source and no FOX news or CNN doesn't count. ;)

[topol-m]

Of course. Compare the size, weight and the impact speed of the RPG warhead and that of the Vikhr. Those alone are clear enough evidence that there is no real comparison between a shoulder launched weapon and an air-to-ground missile.

 

I've seen RPGs doing only dark stains on Abraams side armor (like those 2D blast textures in FPS shooters). I very much doubt Vikhr would stop there.

 

Now that's just wishful thinking..:D

 

You may be talking about RPG-7 or other older models. Do not underestimate modern RPGs though. RPG-29 is specifically developed to counter explosive reactive armor, and its performance is comparable to some of the ATGM. As i posted tests prove it can penetrate T-80/T-90 front armor (or 1.5 m of concrete wall), which means that even the "better" armored tanks are at danger especially in urban combat. The front warhead is intended to set off the explosive reactive armor block from the safe range, and then second larger warhead strikes the hull of the tank.

 

 

We need this kind of detail! (When the octuple cores come out I suppose...)

 

From the Steel Beasts armour model (mm RHA vs KE penetrator for T72, if memory serves me correctly)

 

This comes to show how small part of the tanks hull is actually protected by 900mm or 1000mm or more armor. So the crews must be lucky to be hit every time at their most protected zones, which is highly unlikely especially when attacked from the air.

[GGTharos]

It was a testimonial from one other tank crew members. I don't recall where I found it and I'm too lazy to go look for it (it tends to take too much time :P )

 

Source and no FOX news or CNN doesn't count. ;)

[Yossarian]

 

It needs more than it has now though, for sure.

 

ED could do much without big effort.

Perhaps a little DM with rear and side vulnerability. And a little more coincidence.

For example a front hit from a VIKHR could cause sometimes stop moving, sometimes stop shooting and sometimes kill the tank.

[GGTharos]

ED could do much without big effort.

 

If I had a dime for every time someone said that ... (and for every time I said that :P )

 

Perhaps a little DM with rear and side vulnerability. And a little more coincidence.

For example a front hit from a VIKHR could cause sometimes stop moving, sometimes stop shooting and sometimes kill the tank.

 

There's a bit more to it than simple modifications - above all keep in mind that it's 'yet another feature' which requires time to be programmed and tested, and there are a whole bunch of other 'easy to implement features' that need the same ... priorities.

[Yossarian]

Matt Wagner speaks about a large patch in March.

 

Makes me dreaming... :music_whistling:

 

You test the patch?