No Auto Trim Option = Bad Idea ED

[Herguy]

Ya Ya I know this game is supposed to be a Simulator and very realistic to the T. But we are not all Helicopter Piolits and we play these games for fun and to enjoy "Pretending" to be such.

 

This Trim function on Helicoptors is very annoying and very hard to do while playing and trying to enjoy the game.. I find myself much to busy trying to fight with and control the damn heilo than enjoying playing the game...

 

All's you would have to do is put in an Auto Trim Option to solve all the posts and complaints about the Trim.

 

Frankly I myself can't even keep the chopper stable enough to land it properly.. I'm not a real life pilot, I'm a Gamer... and I enjoy simulation games, but not to the point where I would have to go to real life Flight school to play a "Game".

[159th_Viper]

Have you stumbled onto the 'Arcade' mode yet?

 

 

If not, RTFM!

[Distiler]

Ya Ya I know this game is supposed to be a Simulator and very realistic to the T. But we are not all Helicopter Piolits and we play these games for fun and to enjoy "Pretending" to be such.

 

This Trim function on Helicoptors is very annoying and very hard to do while playing and trying to enjoy the game.. I find myself much to busy trying to fight with and control the damn heilo than enjoying playing the game...

 

All's you would have to do is put in an Auto Trim Option to solve all the posts and complaints about the Trim.

 

Frankly I myself can't even keep the chopper stable enough to land it properly.. I'm not a real life pilot, I'm a Gamer... and I enjoy simulation games, but not to the point where I would have to go to real life Flight school to play a "Game".

 

This game is about learning to fly and combat in a ka-50. It's not game about being a badass butt-kicker superhero. So, pretend you're a new recruit and you have to learn to fly the machine.

 

Or what Viper said, adjust settings for "arcade" fly mode.

[Brach]

Yep, like they ^ said.

 

Too difficult for your taste: go arcade! :joystick:

 

Really, it's there for those who just want to hop in there and shoot stuff and not bother with the realism. Have fun! :D

[hyperfighter]

it took some effort for me to learn to, 3 weeks to figure it out, now i dont even think about t anymore and i can fly anyway i want, because it still requires skill it adds a lot to the gameplay experience, especially when u see others still learning to fly (fighting ap :P). makes me feel like an ace (me like that).

 

the more realistic the better imo, wouldnt it be great to know that when u can fly the virtual shit u would be able to do the same in real life. i flew some ulv's and single props so the closer the sim comes to real life the better.

also theres an arcade mode i recommend that, thats a game, realistic mode is a (learning) simulator

[Herguy]

Have you stumbled onto the 'Arcade' mode yet?

 

 

If not, RTFM!

 

Yes I did try the "Arcade Mode" of the game.. and yes you still need to constantly Trim the chopper and it is not any easier to fly in arcade mode.

[Herguy]

it took some effort for me to learn to, 3 weeks to figure it out, now i dont even think about t anymore and i can fly anyway i want, because it still requires skill it adds a lot to the gameplay experience, especially when u see others still learning to fly (fighting ap :P). makes me feel like an ace (me like that).

 

the more realistic the better imo, wouldnt it be great to know that when u can fly the virtual shit u would be able to do the same in real life. i flew some ulv's and single props so the closer the sim comes to real life the better.

also theres an arcade mode i recommend that, thats a game, realistic mode is a (learning) simulator

 

I play games because they are fun.. I don't play them to become a real pilot or even fly the real thing.. I'm actually afraid of flying and that is why I use games to experience that factor.

 

And imo simulator's like these are too realistic and should be only used by the military and the proper people.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Groove

[Distiler]

Yes I did try the "Arcade Mode" of the game.. and yes you still need to constantly Trim the chopper and it is not any easier to fly in arcade mode.

 

Believe me, it's easier in arcade mode. I mean, if it wasn't, what would be the point?

 

Anyway DCS:Blackshark is not what you're really looking for. Don't expect DCS to adapt to your gamestyle as you wish. It's you that need to learn it. Basics of life!

 

And, by the way, DCS is not mean to be "fun", it's mean to be realistic.

[EtherealN]

Herguy, not that I want to dignify such a rediculous proposition through debating it, but if someone wants to learn how to crash an aircraft... It really isn't all that difficult to learn how to crash... (And someone that wants to learn will learn, if you don't have a sim then you just get yourself an LSA license, takes all of two weeks and you'll be all set with the skills required to crash. :D Or a glider license; my license with all flight hours and tuition costs less than the computer I use to play simulators on so it's even more accessible!)

 

Distiler, I'd actually say that it is meant to be fun. It's just that it's targeted to the people who have fun with simulations. :P

[159th_Viper]

.....and it is not any easier to fly in arcade mode.

 

Well then it's time for you to move onto HAWX!

[EtherealN]

I just tried arcade mode, and besides the fact that that was an absolutely stupid amount of fun that brings me back to the days of the old voxel-terrain Werewolf games, I had absolutely no trouble maintaining control even though I didn't even bother to check what the trim button is in arcade mode. I notice no wind drift and no attitude instability.

 

My conclusion, you do not have to trim in arcade, because there is nothing to trim against! There is no attitude drift, just forward to move forward, back to move back, left to turn left and right to turn right. And of course rudder left and right to turn while in hover, and control altitude directly through collective.

 

So, quite frankly Herguy, if you are having to trim in arcade mode, we're not playing the same game. There's nothing to "fight the damn heli" about in arcade mode! Release all controls and it'll just sit there in a perfect hover, push stick gently in whichever direction you want and it'll turn there, release stick and it returns to a perfect hover.

 

What control inputs are you using and are you absolutely certain you're not actually flying simulation? What are your selection on the Difficulties panel? Where are you flying and what missions? If you are flying online the settings are enforced by the server, so then you are flying sim.

 

EDIT: Viper, I actually think the guy is playing in Sim mode but doesn't know it. :P It's the only way to make his story work as far as I can see...

[Herguy]

Well then it's time for you to move onto HAWX!

 

I tried HAWX demo and i don't like that game at all..

 

I like simulation games.. I like Lock On / FSX / Racing games and such.. they are playable.. Trying to keep the chopper in BS stable is too much.. it takes away from the "Fun" of a game and makes it more work than it should be. seriously.. look at the amount of posts about this issue..

[EtherealN]

Herguy, have you selected the "use these options for all missions" box in the gameplay settings after selecting game mode?

[Distiler]

I tried HAWX demo and i don't like that game at all..

 

I like simulation games.. I like Lock On / FSX / Racing games and such.. they are playable.. Trying to keep the chopper in BS stable is too much.. it takes away from the "Fun" of a game and makes it more work than it should be. seriously.. look at the amount of posts about this issue..

 

Perhaps it's because Helicopters are not fixed wing aircrafts. And there are no post about this "issue" because it's not an issue but a key feature of DCS. You'r crossing the line of non-sense. Or are you just trolling? yeah, I'm starting to consider it.

[VMFA117_Poko]

I tried HAWX demo and i don't like that game at all..

 

I like simulation games.. I like Lock On / FSX / Racing games and such.. they are playable.. Trying to keep the chopper in BS stable is too much.. it takes away from the "Fun" of a game and makes it more work than it should be. seriously.. look at the amount of posts about this issue..

Try to live with this if you like sims. It something you can learn and comes in blood - like riding a bike. Keep in mind that with coming patch we'll probably get an alternative trimmer option.

[HansRoaming]

If you hit the flight director button then you get stabilisation without the constant trimming. I have the AP - FD switch mapped to my joystick so when I am in the weeds moving around I'm in FD mode and when I want to fly in a line to go somewhere I'm using AP mode.

 

You still do a fair bit of trimming but you loose that fight the aircraft when manoeuvring feeling. After a while you just get into the habit of move, trim, move, trim, just like a real chopper pilot would.

 

The patch coming out will address the trimming in a better way than now I think so that might help you too.

 

Anyway once you're not fighting the aircraft to manoeuvre then picking up the skill to fly the chopper is part of the immersion and you do get better over time. The sense of achievement is awesome when you start to 'get it'.

 

Oh and another thing you might want to try is to go into the game controls and to 'flatten' out the response of your controls a bit near the midddle, this makes it a little less sensitive and easier to make the constant tiny adjustments needed without over compensating to steer the aircraft.

 

Hope this helps. Enjoy the game.

[EtherealN]

Guys, I think the real clincher going on here is that I believe he is attempting to and failing to play in arcade mode.

 

The whole points about him liking simulations but being pissed off at DCS simulating a key feature of helicopter handling... That's something else. :P

[bumfire]

I play games because they are fun.. I don't play them to become a real pilot or even fly the real thing.. I'm actually afraid of flying and that is why I use games to experience that factor.

 

And imo simulator's like these are too realistic and should be only used by the military and the proper people. Things like these are the reason the terrorists in 9/11 were able to fly the planes into the towers. Microsoft FS

 

Those nut cases could of done all that damage without needing MSFS to teach them how to fly it into a building, if their was no such thing as a pc flight simulator, they would of still been able to do the job.

 

This game was designed from the get go as hardcore albeit it does have an arcade mode which is easier but not easy as in console flight sim easy. The sim really is meant to be flow on the realistic mode, if you find that too much then maybe you have chosen the wrong game ? I cant say but I will say this, 99% of the people who bought this game probably felt like you do now, in that it is really hard but after a week or 2 you will get the basics down and will start to like it, trim is the hardest part of this sim, once you master trim then your flying will become so natural you wont believe it, trim is everything.

 

I would also advise you to not learn how to fly using arcade mode, as once you learn that you have to then learn realistic mode which has different commands and such and learning the same thing twice can be confusing, start from realistic if possible.

 

It is hard, their is no getting away from it but most if not all flight sims are hard to start with, its just that we are now getting into the era where pc's can actually simulate the experience much more faithfully and with that comes the increased learning curve, 10 years from now we will be saying to ourselves "how easy blackshark was" compared to whatever flight sim is the order of the day then.

[Shrubbo]

I never use trim and have no problems. Anyway can't chat, urge to fly into building overwhelming.

[Arts]

Hi All,

 

I always play in Simulation mode as real as possible. trim the helo... hmm i dont trim, for me its easier to fly without trim, Auto trim isnt so good solved, you have to be in a very stable flight attitude in order that auto trim does what you expect (My experiences)

 

The change to the Flight attitude is to extrem to direct,

 

I would prefer to have a Manual trim option where you can trim +/- step by step, each controlled axis.

This would allow you to eliminate slowly the pressure on the controllstick. And you can 'Feel' what you do....

 

Im Flying Helos in The Flightsimmulator 9/X since long time and had no Problems to handel the KA-50... Just a Familiarization thats it....

 

Regards

Thomas

Edited March 20, 2009 by Arts

[connos]

A new Trim method will come with the patch. I didn't understand how it will work but its nice that they are doing something.

[EtherealN]

The new patch method for non-FB sticks is such that there is no time delay to allow you to re-center, but rather when you trim it will freeze the control input until it detects that you have re-centered your controls. This should alleviate problems of jerky motion when you are not quite fast enough.

 

Arts, I'm not sure you understand the issue of the thread nor the issue of of trim. There is no such thing as "auto trim". There is only trim, and what it does is that it resets the centering position where you are. In the real helicopter this is achieved through a set of springs that make the stick and pedals stay where they were when you trimmed even if you then release them. In the simulation this is achieved either of two ways - if you have Force Feedback the game will use the motors in the stick to make the stick stay where it was. If you do not have Force Feedback, the game gives you a moment to re-center once you have released the trim button.

 

How long of a moment this is can be edited in a settings file (use a proper text ed like Notepad++, not Notepad), and after the patch an alternate mode as described above will be available.

 

If there is a change in attitude when you trim, you are doing it wrong.

 

Also, if your ambition as described is "as real as possible", then the trim method you want would not be applicable. The Ka-50 is not trimmed like that.

 

And finally, the OP is having the issue of finding Trim both necessary but difficult to handle, apparently while flying in arcade mode (known in-game as "game" mode as opposed to "simulation"). This is something I find extremely confusing since I find nothing to trim when I try out the game mode and has led me to believe that he is actually flying in simulator mode but doesn't know it...

[Arts]

Hello,

 

Thanks for the Info, with autotrimm i meant the trimm (T) Option :)

 

I tought sometihng like that the KA-50 doesnt have a dynamic trim.

 

If i unterstand right, the Problem is only with non Forecefeedback Joysticks because of the centering spring they have... so without trim, i always have to keep the joystick in the right position in order to have a stable flight attitude.

 

as real as possible would be no trim then..... (i could remove the centering spring from my Joystick (X52)) :)

 

Regards

Thomas

[ZaltysZ]

If i unterstand right, the Problem is only with non Forecefeedback Joysticks because of the centering spring they have... so without trim, i always have to keep the joystick in the right position in order to have a stable flight attitude.

 

You will have to keep the joystick in the right position in order to have a stable flight attitude even with force feed back stick, if you are not using the trim button. Trim usage is essential. All those issues like "autopilot is fighting me", "helicopter turns around wildly", "my aircraft drifts badly in hover mode" is related to improper use of trim.

 

P.S.: don't keep pressing trim button - it is bad! press it, hold it pressed, make attitude corrections, release the button. If you have FFB stick, that is all; if you have non FFB stick, neutralize the stick as quickly as possible after trim button release.

Edited March 20, 2009 by ZaltysZ

[EtherealN]

I believe the X52 is a force feedback stick, it's fairly popular here and there are quite a few threads about it. You should not have any issue with trim, but I don't use that stick so wouldn't know.

 

And no, it is not a "problem" and real-as wouldn't be no trimming on a non-FB stick. You just have to switch the trim mode to non-FB, and after trimming bring the stick back to the centre. As you trim in non-FB mode the game basically moves the input you had before to the stick's centre position. Proceedure is as follows for non-FB:

 

1) Reach the desired attitude, let's say I want to tilt slightly forward to maintain some velocity and I also require a very slight right rudder to counter wind or something like that.

2) Press trim.

3) Release trim.

4) Immediately move your controls back to centre.

 

At this point, the centre position on your control will give the same control input as you previously got through giving some forward pressure on the stick and slight right rudder, thereby allowing you to maintain that attitude even if you release the controls.

 

This takes a bit of practice to get right and you have to be quite fast with re-centering after releasing the trim button to avoid inadvertently giving a new control input that will cause some jerkiness. However even if you do get some jerkiness (I usually get a little), the centre position will now be where you previously had it and it will settle on that attitude if you release.

 

If you have force feedback enabled and working properly, upon trimming the joystick should stay where it is physically.

 

Do however note that it is when you RELEASE the trim button that it reads the desired trim position.

 

EDIT: Oh, and another note: I think the system disables the three autopilot channels (bank/pitch etcetera) for the duration you have the trim button depressed, so sitting with the button held pressed for extended periods of time is most likely a bad idea. However I am vague on that and someone who knows for sure might be able to clarify that.

Edited March 20, 2009 by EtherealN