I can hear a plane!

[Groove]

"When flown in its operating envelope, above 15,000 feet and outside of huge acquisition radars, the F-117 is still difficult, if not impossible, to see on a SAM radar until it's too late to do anything about it," said Gen. John Michael Loh, who was the Air Force Vice Chief of Staff during the 1991 Persian Gulf war.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/europe/041199kosovo-stealth.html

[Vault]

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/europe/041199kosovo-stealth.html

 

Groove great link, much appreciated.

[nscode]

"When flown in its operating envelope, above 15,000 feet and outside of huge acquisition radars, the F-117 is still difficult, if not impossible, to see on a SAM radar until it's too late to do anything about it," said Gen. John Michael Loh, who was the Air Force Vice Chief of Staff during the 1991 Persian Gulf war.

 

That is where improvments were made to the S-125. For vareous reasons, the original system has a minimum launch distance. Modifications enable it to shoot prety much above your head. Provided that it (the sam) is not the target, if the stealth comes close you are able to react before it flys too far away from detectable range.

[Vekkinho]

The actual pilot that was shot down states he saw the first SA-3 come out of the cloudbase.

 

He might have seen it but he did nothing about it! SA-3 or S-125 missiles leave a smokey trail throughout their flight and if there was moonlight he might have seen it indeed! Trouble is, those missiles usually come in pairs! OK I remember a guy saying F-117A was having trouble when covered with moist, stealth is somewhat compromised! But P-15 Flat Face radar is too weak to register RCS of Nighthawk and tracking is impossible. Later version P-15M is slightly better but Serbia didn't have these! So I still believe this Stealth kill was shot in the dark and pilot took no evasive action to deny a hit. I believe he underestimated his bad luck flying constant heading/alt during egress!

[Vault]

He might have seen it but he did nothing about it! SA-3 or S-125 missiles leave a smokey trail throughout their flight and if there was moonlight he might have seen it indeed! Trouble is, those missiles usually come in pairs! OK I remember a guy saying F-117A was having trouble when covered with moist, stealth is somewhat compromised! But P-15 Flat Face radar is too weak to register RCS of Nighthawk and tracking is impossible. Later version P-15M is slightly better but Serbia didn't have these! So I still believe this Stealth kill was shot in the dark and pilot took no evasive action to deny a hit. I believe he underestimated his bad luck flying constant heading/alt during egress!

 

According to pilot the first SA-3 missed and the proximity fuse didn't activate much to his surprise! so the pilot must of taken some type of evasive manoeuvres, The Flatface is used for long range surveillance and target acquisition only, tracking and fire control guidance for the SA-3 is handled by the Low Blow. I firmly believe that it was a lucky shot.

[GGTharos]

There's nothing lucky about it. It was a well orchestrated ambush, plain and simple. Again, at short ranges, it doesn't matter that you're stealthy.

[Vault]

There's nothing lucky about it. It was a well orchestrated ambush, plain and simple. Again, at short ranges, it doesn't matter that you're stealthy.

 

Well it appears me and certain USAF officials would disagree with you if that link Groove posted holds water. What does matter is the 6 minute window and the very small 40km FC ability of the Low Blow radar giving a maximum window of 6 minutes for an engagement against an F-117 at cruise speed. Lucky? hell yeah for a SAM system that spent most of the time mobile and inactive.

 

It was literally a one off. No other F-117's were lost. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[GGTharos]

I didn't say it was not a one-off. I said it was a well orchestrated ambush. ;)

[Vault]

I didn't say it was not a one-off. I said it was a well orchestrated ambush. ;)

 

We'll agree to disagree. ;)

[nscode]

Good audio of two strikes on Belgrade in the begining of this video:

 

 

 

(this is not the sound I was talking about, this was clearly relatively low level)

[nscode]

From the man who commanded the shooting down of the F-117: 8000m

[Groove]

The F-117 Shootdown

 

It did not take long for the problems connected with the air war’s SEAD effort to register their first toll. On the fourth night of air operations, an apparent barrage of SA-3s downed an F-117 at approximately 2045 over hilly terrain near Budanovci, about 28 miles northwest of Belgrade- marking the first combat loss ever of a stealth aircraft. Fortunately, the pilot ejected safely and, against formidable odds, was recovered before dawn the next day by a combat search and rescue team using MH-53 Pave Low and MH-60 Pave Hawk helicopters led by a flight of A-10s.

 

Afterward, this unexpected event occasioned a flurry of speculation regarding how it might have taken place. Experts at Lockheed Martin Corporation, the aircraft’s manufacturer, reported that- unlike earlier instances of F-117 combat operations- the missions flown over Yugoslavia required the aircraft to operate in ways that may have compromised its stealthy characteristics. By way of example, they noted that even a standard turning maneuver could increase the aircraft’s radar cross section by a factor of 100 or more. Such turns were unavoidable in the constricted airspace within which the F-117s had to fly.15 Another unconfirmed report suggested that the RC-135 Rivet Joint aircraft monitoring enemy SAM activity may have failed to locate the SA-3 battery thought to have downed the F-117 and may not have relayed timely indications of enemy SAM activity to the appropriate C2 authorities. Lending credence to that interpretation, Gen Richard Hawley, commander of Air Combat Command at the time, commented that “when you have a lot of unlocated threats, you are at risk even in a stealth airplane.”16

 

Although the Air Force has remained understandably silent about the confluence of events it believes occasioned the F-117’s downing, according to press reports, Air Force assessors concluded, after conducting a formal postmortem, that a lucky combination of low-technology tactics, rapid learning, and astute improvisation had converged in one fleeting instant to enable an SA-3 not operating in its normal, radar-guided mode to down the aircraft. Undoubtedly, enemy spotters in Italy reported the aircraft’s takeoff from Aviano, and IADS operators in Serbia, as well as those in Bosnia and along the Montenegrin coast, could have assembled enough glimpses of its position en route to its target from scattered radars to cue a SAM battery near Belgrade to fire at the appropriate moment. The aircraft had already dropped one laser-guided bomb (LGB) near Belgrade, offering the now-alerted air defenders yet another clue. (The Air Force is said to have ruled out theories hinging on a stuck weapons-bay door, a descent to below 15,000 feet, or a hit by AAA.)17

 

Allegedly, at least three procedural errors contributed to the downing.18 First, ELINT collectors reportedly could not track the changing location of the three or four offending SAM batteries. Three low-frequency Serb radars that could have detected the F-117’s presence, at least theoretically, were not neutralized because US strike aircraft had earlier bombed the wrong aiming points within the radar complexes. Also, F-16CJs carrying HARMs and operating in adjacent airspace could have deterred the SA-3 battery from emitting, but those aircraft had been recalled before the F-117 shootdown.

 

The second alleged procedural error entailed an EA-6B support jammer that was operating too far away from the F-117 (80 to 100 miles) to offer much protection. Furthermore, it was out of proper alignment with the offending threat radars, resulting in inefficient jamming.

Last, F-117s operating out of Aviano had previously flown along more or less the same transit routes for four nights in a row (because of SACEUR’s ban on overflight of Bosnia) to avoid jeopardizing the Dayton Accords. That would have made their approach pattern into Yugoslav airspace predictable. Knowing the direction the F-117s would take, Serb air defenders could have employed low-frequency radars for the best chance of getting a snap look at the aircraft. Former F-117 pilots and several industry experts acknowledged that the aircraft is detectable by such radars when viewed from the side or directly below. US officials also suggested that the Serbs may have gotten brief, nightly radar hits while the aircraft’s weapons bay doors opened fleetingly.

 

 

In the immediate aftermath of the shootdown, heated arguments arose in Washington and elsewhere over whether US European Command had erred in not acting aggressively to destroy the wreckage of the downed F-117 in order to keep its valuable technology out of unfriendly hands and eliminate its propaganda value, which the Serbs made every effort to exploit.19 Said Gen John M. Loh, USAF, retired, former commander of Tactical Air Command, “I’m surprised we didn’t bomb it, because the standing procedure has always been that when you lose something of real or perceived value- in this case real technology, stealth- you destroy it.”20 Paul Kaminski, the Pentagon’s former acquisition chief and the Air Force’s first F-117 program manager during the 1970s, bolstered the case for at least trying to deny the enemy the wreckage. He noted that, although the F-117 had been operational for 15 years, “there are things in that airplane, while they may not be leading technologies today in the United States, [that] are certainly ahead of what some potential adversaries have.” Kaminski added that the main concern was not that any exploitation of the F-117’s low-observable technology would enable an enemy to put the F-117 at greater risk but that it could help him eventually develop his own stealth technology in due course.21 Reports indicated that military officials had at first considered attempting to destroy the wreckage but opted in the end not to follow through because they could not have located it before civilians and the media surrounded it.22 Those issues aside, whatever the precise explanation for the downing, it meant not only the loss of a key US combat aircraft, but also the dimming of the F-117’s former aura of invincibility, which for years had carried incalculable psychological value.

 

 

source:

 

 

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj02/sum02/lambeth.html

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

source:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj02/sum02/lambeth.html

WOW!! Most everything I said is matched line by line with this report. Read between the lines and you will learn a lot about what I mentioned as "stealth myth". I like this!!

[hitman]

Yes, stealth is a myth, thats why they bombed Belgrade back to the stone age largely unchallenged.

[Vekkinho]

According to pilot the first SA-3 missed and the proximity fuse didn't activate much to his surprise! so the pilot must of taken some type of evasive manoeuvres, The Flatface is used for long range surveillance and target acquisition only, tracking and fire control guidance for the SA-3 is handled by the Low Blow. I firmly believe that it was a lucky shot.

 

Like I said, he should expect a second one!

[GGTharos]

Read between the lines and it tells you that if it wasn't for certain coincidences and political problems leading to repeated overflights of the same area, as well as information leaks and a number of events happening serendipitously, that SAM would have never had a chance.

 

Your 'stealth myth' story is like the peasant with the golden bb rifle that shot down an Apache in Iraq - or like someone tripping on the sidewalk and breaking a leg while just casually walking.

 

In other words, it is the exception that makes the rule, and not the rule.

 

Further to this, your failure to realize that others understand the limitations of stealth, and that stealth has no in fact been defeated, is shocking to me. I expected you to know and understand better.

 

WOW!! Most everything I said is matched line by line with this report. Read between the lines and you will learn a lot about what I mentioned as "stealth myth". I like this!!

[Pilotasso]

WOW!! Most everything I said is matched line by line with this report. Read between the lines and you will learn a lot about what I mentioned as "stealth myth". I like this!!

 

 

You have read repeatedly that Stealth doesn not equal invisibility. Stealth aircraft still have to respect short detection bubles.

 

 

In this instance it did not, much for tactical errors and combination of circunstances. If you are dependent on tactical errors, and fleeting circunstances to down a single stealth aircraft at a time you migth wisht first to make sure your fighting an airforce with only half a dozen Stealth aircraft or else quit the war before it starts.

 

Its still provides a huge advantage, and your still unlikely to shoot one using outdated equipment.

long wave radar will capture anything that reflects electrons but they dont have much ECCM or enough resolution for guidance.

 

 

As for reading between the lines, I guess your an expert at that, because I dont read stuff that isnt there.

 

 

O another note F-117 has already been retired.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Pilotasso

[hitman]

You have read repeatedly that Stealth doesn not equal invisibility. Stealth aircraft still have to respect short detection bubles.

 

 

In this instance it did not, much for tactical errors and combination of circunstances. If you are dependent on tactical errors, and fleeting circunstances to down a single stealth aircraft at a time you migth wisht first to make sure your fighting an airforce with only half a dozen Stealth aircraft or else quit the war before it starts.

 

Its still provides a huge advantage, and your still unlikely to shoot one using outdated equipment.

long wave radar will capture anything that reflects electrons but they dont have much ECCM or enough resolution for guidance.

 

 

As for reading between the lines, I guess your an expert at that, because I dont read stuff that isnt there.

 

 

O another note F-117 has already been retired.

 

Some people are just willfully ignorant. All he wants to do is live in the past and tell the world that because his country shot down 1 stealth aircraft, his country is #1. I always thought of Belgrade as America's Bombing Range and Training Facility for noobs. Thats why they havent sent any B-1B's or B-2A's over there. It was just an unfortunate training accident that got the F-117...maybe even a practical joke presented by the zoomie frat squad to the noob F-117 pilot flying his 10th mission over there because he forgot to warm up the coffee before the flight.

[Groove]

Hitman do us all the favour and show a little more respect towards the Yugoslavian airdefense as well as to the coalition troops. I don't think either of the sides in this conflict thought about the others as noobs.

 

NATO was well aware of how dangerous the yugoslavian AD is.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Vault]

Very intresting post Groove. It's like a goddamn Lion's den in here. Hajduk LO technology is effective, LO increases PK by the dictum of first see, first shot, first kill theory. The USAF's failure to locate and eliminate the SAM batteries combined with the failure of the presence of the CJ's became the ultimate downfall for the F-117. I agree with the USAF's statement that these two factors combined with a lucky combination of low-technology tactics, rapid learning, and astute improvisation had converged in one fleeting instant to enable an SA-3 to of been succesfull. Hajduk with respect the F-117 kill was the proverbial "one in a million".

 

I find the statement "not operating in its normal, radar-guided mode" interesting and confusing because the Low Blow's guidance operates on one frequency, D band, FC and tracking is operated on the I band, what do they mean by "not operating in its normal, radar-guided mode?" was it switching or operating on different frequencies than expected?, was the Low Blow's radar active? It's worth noting that the Low Blow is also able to guide the SA-3 with optics at distances up to 25KM in heavy ECM enviroments, were these optics deployed in this event?. I can find no reference to the optical TV system having infrared capabilities, there is also unconfirmed speculation that the SA-3 has IR terminal guidance.

 

Can anyone define the statement of "not operating in its normal, radar-guided mode?".

Edited March 30, 2009 by Vault

[GGTharos]

The SA-3 is a beam-rider. The tracking radar guides the beam the missile flies in (not the missile itself! ). This system can use an optical backup, allowing the radio beam to be steered using automatic or manual optical tracking of the target with what is basically a telescope (just keep the crosshairs on target! ) instead of the tracking radar.

 

Detonation if the missile is accomplished using a proximity fuze and/or command detonation (At least I believe they use command, but I'm uncertain).

[Vault]

The SA-3 is a beam-rider. The tracking radar guides the beam the missile flies in (not the missile itself! ). This system can use an optical backup, allowing the radio beam to be steered using automatic or manual optical tracking of the target with what is basically a telescope (just keep the crosshairs on target! ) instead of the tracking radar.

 

Detonation if the missile is accomplished using a proximity fuze and/or command detonation (At least I believe they use command, but I'm uncertain).

 

With respect GGT the SA-3 uses command guidance and does not beam ride for guidance, guidance is directly from the Low Blow GOT COLOS system hence why the Low Blow has a dedicated guidance frequency, the SA-3 also has a guidance reciever located on the tail. I did not know the optical targetting system is for guiding the RF beam.

 

Can anyone define the "not operating in its normal, radar-guided mode?". This statement confuses me.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Vault

[Groove]

SA-3 has a TV camera for guidenance in case its in a heavy ECM enviroment. The camera is also capable of tracking targets at night.

 

Actually you can see the TV screen on the left of this picture:

 

[GGTharos]

Yep, you're right - it's a command guidance system. So they just send commands to it based on optical inputs - think TOW.

 

With respect GGT the SA-3 uses command guidance and does not beam ride for guidance, guidance is directly from the Low Blow GOT COLOS system hence why the Low Blow has a dedicated guidance frequency, the SA-3 also has a guidance reciever located on the tail. I did not know the optical targetting system is for guiding the RF beam.

 

Can anyone define the "not operating in its normal, radar-guided mode?". This statement confuses me.

[Vekkinho]

It's a 2.5" CRT but it's there!

 

So if you can see a F-117A you can shoot it! Launching a S-125 upon it has one essential advantage over throwing rocks at it. It has an explosive warhead!