R-27 EOS lock

[nscode]

If I've understood corectly what I've just heard from a Serbian pilot, R-27 (not T) can be fired with an EOS lock and the radar used just for the illumination.

 

:detective_2:

[RedTiger]

Works in LOMAC! :smartass:

 

Seriously, that is interesting. And seriously, it does work in LOMAC...sometimes. I've locked something up with EOS with R-27s selected, flipped on the radar at the right moment and have had it authorize the launch and guide the missiles to the target.

 

What does he/she mean by "radar used just for the illumination".

[GGTharos]

Cool; are there restrictions on launching off-bore in this situation?

 

If I've understood corectly what I've just heard from a Serbian pilot, R-27 (not T) can be fired with an EOS lock and the radar used just for the illumination.

 

:detective_2:

[Maximus_G]

If I've understood corectly what I've just heard from a Serbian pilot, R-27 (not T) can be fired with an EOS lock and the radar used just for the illumination.

 

:detective_2:

 

Radar and EOS work independently or in the "master-slave" mode. If EOS detects a target, it provides angular data to the radar. R-27R(ER) can be fired when the radar locks onto it.

Details are in the good old Su-27SK manual.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Maximus_G

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I have the MIG-29 Flight Manual , but translation is awful. I've never actually read the whole book. I wonder if I can find something like what Nscode mentioned in here about R-27 and EOS?

[GGTharos]

You can't, that is, I don't think it specifically tells you that you can use it this way ... that's probably more of a weapons employment manual thing that I think tends to come separately ... or maybe that's only in the USAF.

[nscode]

No, weapons employment is part of the flight manual afaik.

 

Cool; are there restrictions on launching off-bore in this situation?

 

I would also like to know that :D If there is, than sure it would be in the aircraft manual, as it's an "aircraft thing"

[Boberro]

Try use Helmet with ER and ET with this mode.

 

Checked and confirmed good thing :D

[RedTiger]

No, weapons employment is part of the flight manual afaik.

 

 

 

I would also like to know that :D If there is, than sure it would be in the aircraft manual, as it's an "aircraft thing"

 

I have that manual too, the weapons employment section is pretty simplistic. And I agree, the translation is really, really bad...on purpose! They supposedly didn't translate it better to preserve some of the idiosyncrasies of the original Russian (translation: we're too lazy or cheap to have a native speaker fluent in English and Russian proofread it).

Edited March 25, 2009 by RedTiger

[RedTiger]

This is what I found, in it's entirety:

 

"128. The IRR mode is used under the VFR conditions, in the complicated jammingto radar situation, in case of the radar failure and when attacking the target without own radar irradiation so as to enhance the secrecy of the target approach. The interception and attack of the aerial target in the IRR mode are executed in the rear hemisphere. Switch on the mode after takeoff.

 

 

In the MR (GATE) mode, with the cooperation selected and the ranges measured by the integrated radar/sighting system in the quasiscan mode, the Dperm max mark (Dp,. min in equal to zero) is indicated on the screen. With the integrated radar/sighting system changed over to the main channel (and the laser range is not indicated), the D Perm max 1 and D marks are displayed, the D perm max and D per min.values may changed regularly. The target detection range in teh IRR mode amounts to 25 10 km at the background of the free space and to 10 5 km at the background of the clouds. The target lockon range is less that the target detection range by 2 or 3 km.

 

For operating the integrated radar/sighting system in thsi mode, it is necessaryt o proceed as follows:

 

-set the ACS MODES selector switch to the MR position;

-use the FHS RHS selector switch to select the hemisphere to be attacked;

-use the SPAN knob to ascertain the target size (the large, middle or small size);

detect the target blip on the windshield indicator, making use of the information deliverd from the command post on the target attitude with respect to the flight course;

-in the presence of the jamming and complication in discrimination of the target, remove a certain portion of the marks displayed on the windshield indicator by decreasing the sensitivity of the optical locator laser station desensitization; use the control knob to superimpose the gate on the target blip; depress the WSM, LOCKON PF button and keep it depressed until the target is locked on (for 2 or 3 s). The target designation to the misile infrared homing heads and preparation of the missiles are performed automatically after the optical locator laser station changes over to automatic tracking. The presentation of the mode information and aiming are similar to those as in the radar mode.

-as soon as the LP command is applied, launch the missiles by depressing the RKT MKS B trigger;

-break off the attack after launching the missiles or by the MB command (break off the attack by the BKWY command towards the aiming circle displacement).

 

For ensuring the preparation of the missiles for launching, if the target is locked on by the infrared homing head and no information an the target range is given, the LP command is delivered in the flickering mode. Launch the missiles in response to the LP command at the range less the maximum permissible one determined by eye or according to the information delivered from the command post. In this case, the windshield indicator ranage scale reads only the maximum ranges, the minimum rage mark is set at zero."

 

MiG-29 Flight Manual: Declassified, pgs 47-48

 

Making sense of some of this is difficult. The translation is bad and a lot of it is info specific to the aircraft.

Edited March 25, 2009 by RedTiger

[Maximus_G]

I wonder if I can find something like what Nscode mentioned in here about R-27 and EOS?

 

Example, Su-7SK manual, paragraph 5.1.6.III:

In SHLEM mode, radar is in master mode when there is target lock, IZL is on and LD is off; and also when the RH-type missiles are selected regardless LD position.

 

5.1.2:

 

Radar modes:

...

KVO (quasi-view mode) is used when radar works in slave mode. In this mode, when OLS picks a target and IZL is on, radar continuously measures the distance to the target, turning transmitter on for a short period of time each 5 seconds.

 

When the distance drops below 15 km or when VVOD on the trottle is pressed at greater ranges, radar automatically locks on the target and changes its mode from KVO to RNP.

...

RNP (continuous direction finding) mode is used for obtaining target coordinates with precision needed to allow guided missile launch; volume scan is discontinued.

...

DNP (discrete-continuous illumination) is used for target tracking and illumination, and RH-type missile datalinking.

 

RNP is used to prepare the missile launch, and when it's fired, radar switches to DNP.

IZL is the switch which turns on the radar antenna transmitter.

LD is the switch which turns on the laser rangefinder.

 

As you can see, basically, when radar is on, it allows R-27R(ER) firing, even if the EOS is on too, and it doesn't matter what device has picked the target first. Radar and EOS logic is different in LO, but still the situation is the same there.

[nscode]

Yes, but that describes what goes on when radar can get a lock. What about when it can't? Like if radar is half-malfunctioned, and it can only transmit.

[Alfa]

This is what I found, in it's entirety:

 

"128. The IRR mode is used under the VFR conditions, in the complicated jammingto radar situation, in case of the radar failure and when attacking the target without own radar irradiation so as to enhance the secrecy of the target approach. The interception and attack of the aerial target in the IRR mode are executed in the rear hemisphere. Switch on the mode after takeoff.

 

 

In the MR (GATE) mode, with the cooperation selected and the ranges measured by the integrated radar/sighting system in the quasiscan mode, the Dperm max mark (Dp,. min in equal to zero) is indicated on the screen. With the integrated radar/sighting system changed over to the main channel (and the laser range is not indicated), the D Perm max 1 and D marks are displayed, the D perm max and D per min.values may changed regularly. The target detection range in teh IRR mode amounts to 25 10 km at the background of the free space and to 10 5 km at the background of the clouds. The target lockon range is less that the target detection range by 2 or 3 km.

 

For operating the integrated radar/sighting system in thsi mode, it is necessaryt o proceed as follows:

 

-set the ACS MODES selector switch to the MR position;

-use the FHS RHS selector switch to select the hemisphere to be attacked;

-use the SPAN knob to ascertain the target size (the large, middle or small size);

detect the target blip on the windshield indicator, making use of the information deliverd from the command post on the target attitude with respect to the flight course;

-in the presence of the jamming and complication in discrimination of the target, remove a certain portion of the marks displayed on the windshield indicator by decreasing the sensitivity of the optical locator laser station desensitization; use the control knob to superimpose the gate on the target blip; depress the WSM, LOCKON PF button and keep it depressed until the target is locked on (for 2 or 3 s). The target designation to the misile infrared homing heads and preparation of the missiles are performed automatically after the optical locator laser station changes over to automatic tracking. The presentation of the mode information and aiming are similar to those as in the radar mode.

-as soon as the LP command is applied, launch the missiles by depressing the RKT MKS B trigger;

-break off the attack after launching the missiles or by the MB command (break off the attack by the BKWY command towards the aiming circle displacement).

 

For ensuring the preparation of the missiles for launching, if the target is locked on by the infrared homing head and no information an the target range is given, the LP command is delivered in the flickering mode. Launch the missiles in response to the LP command at the range less the maximum permissible one determined by eye or according to the information delivered from the command post. In this case, the windshield indicator ranage scale reads only the maximum ranges, the minimum rage mark is set at zero."

 

MiG-29 Flight Manual: Declassified, pgs 47-48

 

Making sense of some of this is difficult. The translation is bad and a lot of it is info specific to the aircraft.

 

The above describes the procedure to "suppress" the use of radar and cue IR missile seekers to target via EOS alone - in order to carry out a "stealthy" attack(or simply because the radar has been jammed and can't be used for the purpose).

 

While the description is interesting in terms of the actual procedure required, it doesn't answer the question nscode asked - namely whether EOS can be used as the principle target tracking device for a SARH missile launch.

[Alfa]

Example, Su-7SK manual, paragraph 5.1.6.III:

In SHLEM mode, radar is in master mode when there is target lock, IZL is on and LD is off; and also when the RH-type missiles are selected regardless LD position.

 

5.1.2:

 

Radar modes:

...

KVO (quasi-view mode) is used when radar works in slave mode. In this mode, when OLS picks a target and IZL is on, radar continuously measures the distance to the target, turning transmitter on for a short period of time each 5 seconds.

 

When the distance drops below 15 km or when VVOD on the trottle is pressed at greater ranges, radar automatically locks on the target and changes its mode from KVO to RNP.

...

RNP (continuous direction finding) mode is used for obtaining target coordinates with precision needed to allow guided missile launch; volume scan is discontinued.

...

DNP (discrete-continuous illumination) is used for target tracking and illumination, and RH-type missile datalinking.

 

 

RNP is used to prepare the missile launch, and when it's fired, radar switches to DNP.

IZL is the switch which turns on the radar antenna transmitter.

LD is the switch which turns on the laser rangefinder.

 

As you can see, basically, when radar is on, it allows R-27R(ER) firing, even if the EOS is on too, and it doesn't matter what device has picked the target first. Radar and EOS logic is different in LO, but still the situation is the same there.

 

Again it doesn't answer the question at hand. The above only describes combined use of EOS and Radar to obtain a target in the first place - i.e. the EOS lock is passed on to the radar, which in turn must acquire the target itself before a SARH missile can be launched.

[Alfa]

Yes, but that describes what goes on when radar can get a lock. What about when it can't? Like if radar is half-malfunctioned, and it can only transmit.

 

Quite :) .

 

What you propose at least appears to be a feature of some SAM systems. As I understand the functionlity of the "Buk" and its naval variant the "Uragan"("Shtil"), these can use a back-up IR sensor to lock target in case of radar jamming, pass angular target cordiantes to the radar, which in turn transmit these to the inflight missile(midcourse guidance) while "blindly" aiming its tranmission towards target in order to provide reflected radar energy for the missile's SARH seeker to home on.

 

I have not seen any mention of something like that in connection with the WCS of the MiG-29. But considering that the components of this - single channel tracking/illumination radar, SARH missile and separate(but integrated) IR sensor - resemble the ones forming the Buk/Uragan systems, I guess it is possible :) .

[GGTharos]

Possible but not necessarily there. Without a target lock (ie. radar tracking a target) the LA and/or data link signal might not be generated when a radar guided missile is selected. But who knows :)

[Alfa]

Possible but not necessarily there. Without a target lock (ie. radar tracking a target) the LA and/or data link signal might not be generated when a radar guided missile is selected. But who knows :)

 

Yes it depends on the setup of the system.

 

Since the SUV-29 includes support for IR homing missiles, it might not have been deemed necessary with such an "anti-jamming" feature for the radar guided weapons.

[Maximus_G]

Again it doesn't answer the question at hand. The above only describes combined use of EOS and Radar to obtain a target in the first place - i.e. the EOS lock is passed on to the radar, which in turn must acquire the target itself before a SARH missile can be launched.

 

Yep, the manual doesn't say whether RH-missiles can be used if the radar doesn't get the lock. Maybe it's there in the other parts of the document, that are not available.

 

I've checked the MiG-29 manual, and what is says:

 

4.1.1. Shlem

...

If the R-27R1 missiles are selected, then target designation in "Shlem" mode is provided to the radar, and after the target is locked by the radar, further aiming has to be performed according to information on the HUD. Target lock by the radar or EOS is indicated by blinking rings oт the helmet-mounted display.

 

And again, radar finds the target by EOS or helmet designating, and the standard usage of R-27R requires the radar lock.

 

Still there's an option for the case when radar is normally slaved to EOS and just keeps pinging the space in the provided direction, while being not able to keep tracking the target on its own.