tflash Posted March 29, 2009 Posted March 29, 2009 It seems the plagued A-400M program is going totally berserk: http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSLT67087120090329 An-70 anyone? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
RvETito Posted March 29, 2009 Posted March 29, 2009 Ever since Russia left the An-70 program leaving it 100% in ukrainian hands it's considered dead or at least frozen. I hardly see it as an alternative. "See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89. =RvE=
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 I seriously doubt that EU countries would give a single Euro to anybody but Airbus for a project like this one. Such a large project means thousands of jobs, probably tens of thousands. An-70 is an excellent airplane. In my view, Ukraine has a lot to loose by playing dumb with Russia in such important projects (and few other things) for a country. Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit
Maximus_G Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) I seriously doubt that EU countries would give a single Euro to anybody but Airbus for a project like this one. Such a large project means thousands of jobs, probably tens of thousands. Agree. But still we could imagine some An-70EU project, converted to European standards and EADS production. That could be an interesting way to give EU countries what they want and give life to An-70... It just would need more time to redesign the plane. Edited March 30, 2009 by Maximus_G
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Agree. But still we could imagine some An-70EU project, converted to European standards and EADS production. That could be an interesting way to give EU countries what they want and give life to An-70... It just would need more time to redesign the plane.It is just not going to happen. There is no way EU will just give jobs away for something they can do, maybe not as good as An-70, but still good enough to preserve jobs. Is it a Renault or Citroen that is currently closing jobs in Slovenia and transferring them back to France. These are tough times, every job counts ... Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit
Mugatu Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Cmon get series the A-400M is light years ahead of the An-70. EADS tried to rush the program but have now realised any new (hi-tech) aircraft development takes atleast 10 years to get right and they want out of the current contracts.
Shaman Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) The entire A-400M program will be scrapped. It has serious construction flaw. What they realized, that they are unable to close the ramp after opening/lowering it, because the entire shape of the aircraft fuselage deforms badly (due to unpredicted reaction of the entire fuselage construction). They'd need to design fuselage from scratch while taking costy lesson from this terrible mistake in calculations...too much confidence was given to composite materials that were used on the prototype! I know it from my source inside =) I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you ;) Edited March 30, 2009 by Shaman 51PVO Founding member (DEC2007-) 100KIAP Founding member (DEC2018-) :: Shaman aka [100☭] Shamansky tail# 44 or 444 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 100KIAP Regiment Early Warning & Control officer
Pilotasso Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) I seriously doubt that EU countries would give a single Euro to anybody but Airbus for a project like this one. Such a large project means thousands of jobs, probably tens of thousands. An-70 is an excellent airplane. In my view, Ukraine has a lot to loose by playing dumb with Russia in such important projects (and few other things) for a country. You got a wrong view on this. Its not simple task to bring a russian aircraft into service in a country with western aeronavigability rules. Any AN-70 to be flown by Europe would have to be westernized and its process of maintenance standadardized to the west rules and compatibilized with the airctraft itself and then pass a rather painfull burocratic certification process to allow them to fly. Not to mention the logistical nightmare that russian hardware often bring to the table. Companies would complain alot for sending their engines to russsia for overhaul. European aircraft have been designed from scratch with these in ind, russians do not. Edited March 30, 2009 by Pilotasso .
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) You got a wrong view on this. Its not simple task to bring a russian aircraft into service in a country with western aeronavigability rules.Really? What does Europe use for "aeronavigability"rules that the rest of the world doesn't? Even if there is something specific to Europe, An-70 could be easily adapted by installing specific equipment. BTW, I am positive that Antonov would be more then happy to install any "aeronavigability" equipment the customer specify. Any AN-70 to be flown by Europe would have to be westernized and its process of maintenance standadardized to the west rules and compatibilized with the airctraft ...Bunch of cheap excuses .... Customer can specify any special need for a standard to be included in the product. The term "Western" does not have a meaning it use to Pilotasso. Portugal is not what it use to be. Portugal is little bigger then Serbia. The world is rapidly changing. .... and then pass a rather painfull burocratic certification process to allow them to fly.A-400M would just fly to the skies, without any certification process right? :disgust: Not to mention the logistical nightmare that russian hardware often bring to the table. You my friend are still living in the cold war or maybe tsar's Russia. Antonov is not a Russian company. Companies would complain alot for sending their engines to russsia for overhaul.So what? The jobs? Now you are talking ... Besides, I don't know whose engines are on An-70, Russians or Ukrainian. European aircraft have been designed from scratch with these in ind, russians do not.Russian aircraft design is all right. Antonov is not a Russian company. You are living in the past. Edited March 30, 2009 by =4c= Hajduk Veljko Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit
RvETito Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) Adopting western avionics in easterm aircraft is something russians/ukrainians have big experience with. In my previous job we made many modifications of our An-12's and An-26's- Honeywell EGPWS, ACAS/TCAS II, weather radars, transponders, Garmin GPS and GNS- all through design authorizations. They became fully operational and compatible in Eurocontrol (i.e. the whole world) airspace. That works for years and is not a problem at all. But russian and especially ukrainian logistics (parts and materiels supply) is indeed a nightmare, giving you here 1st hand painful experience. They just don't seem to care what the AOG abreviation means. Not to mention the quality, again, especially of parts from Ukraine. It comes with all the certificates and stamps, you put it on the aircraft and it fails on the first flight or engine run :mad: Another thing to add- russian hardware is not difucult at all to operate in EU. Mind you the Ka-32A11BC is the main firefighting power in Spain (12 pcs) and Portugal (6 pcs). This year it's EASA type certificate is expected to be due. Which means a lot. But that's just Kamov :D:D:D Edited March 30, 2009 by =RvE=Tito "See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89. =RvE=
Shaman Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 I am spare parts specialist for ATR fleet, but also do Boeings and Embrayer while on AOG duty. All I can say about former CCCP block countries, we do not purchase from them nor do any exchanges and/or repairs due to the facts mentioned by AirTito. 51PVO Founding member (DEC2007-) 100KIAP Founding member (DEC2018-) :: Shaman aka [100☭] Shamansky tail# 44 or 444 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 100KIAP Regiment Early Warning & Control officer
Pilotasso Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 But russian and especially ukrainian logistics (parts and materiels supply) is indeed a nightmare, giving you here 1st hand painful experience. They just don't seem to care what the AOG abreviation means. Not to mention the quality, again, especially of parts from Ukraine. It comes with all the certificates and stamps, you put it on the aircraft and it fails on the first flight or engine run :mad: Another thing to add- russian hardware is not difucult at all to operate in EU. Mind you the Ka-32A11BC is the main firefighting power in Spain (12 pcs) and Portugal (6 pcs). This year it's EASA type certificate is expected to be due. Which means a lot. But that's just Kamov :D:D:D Im glad you mentioned Portuguese Ka-32's because we got 6 of them and only 3 are flying. the other 3 are still gathering dust wainting paperwork and logistics solved ever since we got them 2 years ago. So haj get a clue before arguing against. Cheers. .
tflash Posted March 30, 2009 Author Posted March 30, 2009 Oops, I made a mistake by hinting at the An-70; lets go back to the A-400M. I guess this was an over-ambitious project: a new plane and a new engine? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
RvETito Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 Im glad you mentioned Portuguese Ka-32's because we got 6 of them and only 3 are flying. the other 3 are still gathering dust wainting paperwork and logistics solved ever since we got them 2 years ago. Well, after all it comes to management. Ka-32 has already set a benchmark in Canada- 285 flight hours per... month. And that can't be possible without proper maintenance and logistics. So russian system works but not for all, that's the problem. When you pay you get, trouble is that it allows to pay less and accordingly get less (quality). But russians are not the one to discover the hot water- quality issues are common for all. For instance Airbus, what I'm currently working on- they just skin you alive for nothing, that much you pay. And same problems like ukrainian parts- I get an overhauled actuator for installation and it leaks right from the box... 1 "See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89. =RvE=
Maximus_G Posted March 30, 2009 Posted March 30, 2009 ...Besides, I don't know whose engines are on An-70, Russians or Ukrainian. I just would like to point it out, i meant a plane based on An-70 could even be produced by EU. Of course it wouldn't be a simple or quick deal, but still i guess the project could be converted to EADS production technology. Design could be bought, not the plane itself. There could be compromise schemes too, like 1st batch Ukranian production for the countries that cannot wait for too long. But surely that's just a speculation, and it's now quite late to think of it as an option.
Recommended Posts