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1.1 Copy Protection Update


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I love the 'warez' experts that anounce copy protection doesn't work. Why? What research is that based on, or is it a casual observation? I have more confidence that a software company such as ED puts more thought and research into copy protection before they use it.

 

10 to 1 they have choosen StarForce because it actually works. So everyone that complains CP doesn't work should really show why it doesn't. Not through saying a illegial copy will be bought in Bangkock, but though actual market research they or someone else has done.

 

Quite simply I have more faith that ED knows what they are doing than some annoymous person on the interweb who proclaims they are a CP expert.

 

Concur with my friend from Canada.

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a

i also agree that Stormin´s posts have been less and less of what i used to see in Stormin and more provocative and with a "screw you, i coudn´t care less" attitude that i wasn´t used to see.

 

maybe if Stormin replied to the posts of people that had legitimate concerns and worries instead of keeping focused on "paranoias" and extremist posts that only kept speculation alive in this thread and similar others, things would be clearer than they are.

 

Maybe Stormin is entitled to have an opinion? I've posted nothing here that is controversial or inappropriate. I appreciate your wanting to hold me to some particular standard but I'm not an official spokesperson and certainly not the Oracle of Wisdom. I have opinions, feelings, and every right to express them as much as anyone else within the rules and terms set forth in this forum. I don't work for TFC/ED and I am not in any official capacity on this forum.

 

Why is it that people get upset just because someone totally disagrees with them? That's life my friend. If I disagree with you I will tell you straight up and that is exactly what I've done here. I have not uttered the words "screw you" and that has NEVER been my intention. "Wake up" is probably a better characterization.

 

I happen to believe that TFC/ED are doing the right thing. The obvious thing is that no matter what they do they will never be able to make all of you happy at the same time and still be in business. They have always listened to the community and their reconsideration of the copy protection scheme is a prime example.

 

I also believe that those that are so opposed to SF and copy protection are a small, very small minority of people who will, most likely, still purchase the product. A small minority of the minority are people who just want to complain regardless. All of this is my opinion and I am entitled to just that, my opinions.

 

My only regret is that they have not made a detailed public announcement to clear up all the confusion and speculation. I'm confident that they will do so shortly but since like you, I am just another forum user, I don't have any inside information.

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Is it me or the sh*t has hit the fan?

 

This is a fart in a whirlwind. Nothing that serious, IMHO.

 

Ahhh, so it was just me. Thats better. hehe :lol: :)

 

I can almost bet that when the add-on comes out, and things get clarified by ED, all will be back to normal...and peace will be in the air.

 

:D

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a

i also agree that Stormin´s posts have been less and less of what i used to see in Stormin and more provocative and with a "screw you, i coudn´t care less" attitude that i wasn´t used to see.

 

maybe if Stormin replied to the posts of people that had legitimate concerns and worries instead of keeping focused on "paranoias" and extremist posts that only kept speculation alive in this thread and similar others, things would be clearer than they are.

 

Maybe Stormin is entitled to have an opinion? I've posted nothing here that is controversial or inappropriate. I appreciate your wanting to hold me to some particular standard but I'm not an official spokesperson and certainly not the Oracle of Wisdom. I have opinions, feelings, and every right to express them as much as anyone else within the rules and terms set forth in this forum. I don't work for TFC/ED and I am not in any official capacity on this forum.

 

Why is it that people get upset just because someone totally disagrees with them? That's life my friend. If I disagree with you I will tell you straight up and that is exactly what I've done here. I have not uttered the words "screw you" and that has NEVER been my intention. "Wake up" is probably a better characterization.

 

I happen to believe that TFC/ED are doing the right thing. The obvious thing is that no matter what they do they will never be able to make all of you happy at the same time and still be in business. They have always listened to the community and their reconsideration of the copy protection scheme is a prime example.

 

I also believe that those that are so opposed to SF and copy protection are a small, very small minority of people who will, most likely, still purchase the product. A small minority of the minority are people who just want to complain regardless. All of this is my opinion and I am entitled to just that, my opinions.

 

My only regret is that they have not made a detailed public announcement to clear up all the confusion and speculation. I'm confident that they will do so shortly but since like you, I am just another forum user, I don't have any inside information.

 

of course you are entitled to have an opinion... but others have too... and i just don´t see why they should be criticised for that...

 

sure... there has been a lot of speculation and stuff... but like i said... ED only has to make things clear to end this.

 

and no. i have never been upset about anything that has been said or posted here. i have better things to do. i do think, however, that there has been a lot of unnecessary slapping with no reason.

 

i still believe that the end does not justifies every mean.

 

like you said, i may be a minority (and i speak only for myself), and i might still buy FC, but only because it´s ED and FC. otherwise... i would pass...

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of course you are entitled to have an opinion... but others have too... and i just don´t see why they should be criticised for that...

 

sure... there has been a lot of speculation and stuff... but like i said... ED only has to make things clear to end this.

 

and no. i have never been upset about anything that has been said or posted here. i have better things to do. i do think, however, that there has been a lot of unnecessary slapping with no reason.

 

i still believe that the end does not justifies every mean.

 

like you said, i may be a minority (and i speak only for myself), and i might still buy FC, but only because it´s ED and FC. otherwise... i would pass...

 

Where have I denied anyone their right to express their opinions? When opinions are expressed that I happen to disagree with then I will most certianly be critical of them as you are doing in your posts. You are being critical of me and I am disagreeing with you in turn. That's the process, it goes both ways. I'm not upset by any of this and will be glad to continue to diagree with you if I see fit. It doesn't mean I don't like you or that I don't respect you, it means I disagree with you.

 

Where have I "slapped" anyone?

 

I will concur with you that TFC/ED needs to make an official statement regarding this matter. If you read one of my earlier postings I urged them to do so.

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and if you check my posts i have done that too.

 

and slapping was done by either "side" to the other "side"... it wasn´t meant to you.

 

i just hope that Monday ED will make a statement and clear all this up.

 

disagreeing is healthy and democratic. it´s how civilized societies work.

 

and we DO agree on something... that ED needs to clear things up... :wink:

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Stormin, in regards to ED not coming on here and making an official post:

 

Is it a language problem? Do they have trouble communicating in English (and without you as their spokesperson)?

 

Just curious, not trying to be rude or anything . . .

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Re: 1.1 Copy Protection Update

 

 

As many of you have probably already noticed, the revised Demo does not contain any Starforce drivers however.

 

Beg you pardon, Grand Master Wags,

 

but I noticed 2 strange thinks with this revised Demo:

 

1. When installing, the installation screen NOW shows "Protected by Starforce" in the upper left corner, which was not there in the first version of the demo.

2. Why is the demo trying to access the internet ? There is no reason for it, other that the demo 'phones home' or to be more precise, the -not existing - Starforce is the suspect here.

 

Your comments on this please....

kind regards,

Raven....

[sigpic]http://www.crc-mindreader.de/CRT/images/Birds2011.gif[/sigpic]

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Guest frostpaw

I've had enough

 

I am a constant reader of many forums about flight sims and have been into simming for 20 years. Usually I just keep my mouth shut because I think I don't have important contributions to make. But I've reached my limit in some things. It's sad as it is to watch the market for Hardcore-Flightsims vanish. The last hope and long-awaited one for me was Lock On. So it didn't sell well. I'm sorry for it, I was in the shop on the release date and asked the sales-persons until they opened the box with it for me.

I bought and played Race Driver 2 and uninstalled some software to play it. Later I learned it was protected by Starforce. That was ok, Starforce doesn't notice some ISO-Tools which came out after it. But still: I don't like driver-like-programs installed which cut my rights to my own PC.

I bought Half-Life2 even though I knew about the Online-Registration. It took me 2 days full of trying and installing until I could play the whole thing. I learned that the license by Valve makes it possible for them to ask for more money anytime they want - even after you bought it. Right - a license like that is not valid in Germany and having bought the Retail Version in Germany I am entitled to the working software - I bought it, not rented it and thus am protected by my own federal law. This can only work practically as long as Valve has direct business in Germany. Valve is a big company and won't screw up much more in that respect.

 

Lock On and it's survival on the market means much more to me, than any 3DShooter, but still - under given circumstances I won't buy it. Not as long as I have to register in any online-manner. I want to buy a product and from there on, nobody should need to know what I do with it. Maybe I want to lend the CD to a friend so he can try the game and make a buy-no-buy-decision. As long as I uninstall it on my own machine before that I should have the freedom to do that. In most cases I can still do that. But tendencies are leading another way and I feel I need to show that I don't like them.

I want to BUY FC, not lend or lease it or anything simple. A one-time-transaction. After that I want to be rightful owner. As long as I don't see that happening - sorry ED. Piracy might be a big problem, but this is where my tolerance ends.

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I love the 'warez' experts that anounce copy protection doesn't work. Why? What research is that based on, or is it a casual observation? I have more confidence that a software company such as ED puts more thought and research into copy protection before they use it.

 

10 to 1 they have choosen StarForce because it actually works. So everyone that complains CP doesn't work should really show why it doesn't. Not through saying a illegial copy will be bought in Bangkock, but though actual market research they or someone else has done.

 

Quite simply I have more faith that ED knows what they are doing than some annoymous person on the interweb who proclaims they are a CP expert.

 

it doesn't work because 99% of all games with any sort of protection have been cracked. How is 99% "not working"? :roll:

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Re: I've had enough

 

So it didn't sell well.

 

Lock On sold well and was profitable.

 

Stormin, any figures that you may tell us here ?

 

The German speaking community is about 250 registered users in the two biggest forums. Starting from that I don't think that by now more than 2000 people playing it in Germany. I noticed clearance sales of various stores already 6 months after LOMAC was published, selling it for dumping prices as low as 10 € just to get rid of it.

 

I think, the biggest market still are the USA, but will that be enough for FC ?

 

LOMAC isn't a lucky game:

Poor management by UBI, when they delayed it again and again, just to bring it out as a half-ready sim with endless bug lists, not to mention the missing - but nevertheless advertised - handbook on the CDs and almost zero and incompetent support (Germany).

 

FC seems to re-write this poor history - delay after delay, a copy protection that many people don't like and a patch even for the demo !?

 

Where does this end ?

 

ED, don't you think that you are overstretching the faith flight simers have put in this game ?

 

LOMAC and FC are the most complex and - despite all the bugs - most desireable flight sims one could ask for - but even a flight simers dedication and enthusiam have their limits - and that is not a question of Dollars or Euros, but how they feel treatened by the makers of a flight sim.

kind regards,

Raven....

[sigpic]http://www.crc-mindreader.de/CRT/images/Birds2011.gif[/sigpic]

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Re: I've had enough

 

LOMAC isn't a lucky game:

Poor management by UBI, when they delayed it again and again, just to bring it out as a half-ready sim with endless bug lists, not to mention the missing - but nevertheless advertised - handbook on the CDs and almost zero and incompetent support (Germany).

 

FC seems to re-write this poor history - delay after delay, a copy protection that many people don't like and a patch even for the demo !?

 

I beg to differ - the original Lomac was delayed for best part of a year. Flaming Cliffs was given estimated release dates and we were kept up to date on the problems.

 

The Lomac demo never got a patch. Lomac didn't get a patch for a long time.

 

Lomac v1.00 was essentially forced out due to commercial pressure. Flaming Cliffs has had some real time spent on it, and I have it on good authority that it is well and truly ready.

 

 

As long as you copy protect something, someone somewhere will complain . . . . . that is inevitable. If it works, I'm not sure it really matters . . . .

 

 

 

Ubi did make plenty of mistakes in handling Lomac - culminating in them dropping it.

 

ED are now freed from the shackles of French Oppression , and are doing a much better job of things. You can argue that Flaming Cliffs is actually the game that Lomac was meant to be - at the price that most people said they'd pay for a good flightsim, after a time that most people said they're be prepared to wait.

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Re: I've had enough

 

As long as you copy protect something, someone somewhere will complain . . . . . that is inevitable. If it works, I'm not sure it really matters . . . .

 

 

 

Ubi did make plenty of mistakes in handling Lomac - culminating in them dropping it.

 

ED are now freed from the shackles of French Oppression , and are doing a much better job of things. You can argue that Flaming Cliffs is actually the game that Lomac was meant to be - at the price that most people said they'd pay for a good flightsim, after a time that most people said they're be prepared to wait.

 

true and not quite so.

 

i don´t know if there would be all these problems if they had opted for SF without activation or other similar setup.

 

again i think that most of the worries right now is being caused by ED itself by not making things cristal clear. however, we ARE in the middle of a weekend and i am sure that next week ED will step forward.

 

and yes, price is right (i would pay more), flight sim seems nice and i have no problems with time to release.

 

and no, i don´t like the way it´s coming out. but that´s just me. :wink:

 

EDIT:

 

if a pirate has a right to speak out against CP that bothers him, i think that as a paying customer i have a right to speak out to CP that bothers me.

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First post after reading these forums since Flanker 1.00 day's....so here goes.... :)

 

The three main issues on CP which started this off were

 

1. Starforce security has been questioned which is a clear concern

to all who intend to have this on their system.

 

2. Starforce sends back details of the system FC is installed in back to

a central server, what info is sent and how it is used has not been

detailed.

 

3. Starforce need to show how they intend to continue supporting the game

in the long term to allow customers to play a game they have already

purchased. Software companies go bust and get aquired (ask ED) so this

is a genuine concern.

 

Problem is with the Starforce software and Starforces continued support

of FC. If ED is getting this much heat from their customer base

why are'nt Starforce helping out ED with a defence of their product. Surely

since ED and eventually FC customers are paying for this they should

provide some customer support to ED to help clarify these issues.

 

At the end of the day the customer IS always right in that it is their decision

to part with their hard earned cash and buy what is an exceptional game. ED need to communicate to their customers to convice them that the

justified protection of ED's IP is not putting customers at risk either from a security or a long term support perspective.

 

Good business ???

 

So far have'nt seen any clear statement from ED that addresses each of above clearly enough to convince me to buy. Increasing registration count from 3 to 5 just does'nt do it.

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Re: I've had enough

 

 

The Lomac demo never got a patch.

 

I never said that the LOMAC demo was ever patched.

 

Lomac didn't get a patch for a long time.

 

I remember well and that me and many friends were pissed by the endless list of bugs that we discovered when we played LOMAC 1.00. As mentioned before, LOMAC wasn't ready for release when UBI decided to release it. A patch 1.01 was what kept the simers play LOMAC, otherwise many would have turned their back on it.

Lomac v1.00 was essentially forced out due to commercial pressure. Flaming Cliffs has had some real time spent on it, and I have it on good authority that it is well and truly ready.

That's true.

 

As long as you copy protect something, someone somewhere will complain . . . . . that is inevitable. If it works, I'm not sure it really matters . . . .

 

It was bad luck to confront the community with a 'forgotten' copy protection in the demo. Starforce as chosen copy protection would have raised a debate anyway, because of it's questionable history when previous versions of it were released with other games, however the fact that there was a total unnessessary copy protection in the FC demo actually pissed many potential customers, as you can read in this forum and elsewhere. Some felt betrayed, others controlled ('Spyware Starforce').

After all it damaged the faith that the community had in the devs before.

 

What a pity !

kind regards,

Raven....

[sigpic]http://www.crc-mindreader.de/CRT/images/Birds2011.gif[/sigpic]

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it doesn't work because 99% of all games with any sort of protection have been cracked. How is 99% "not working"? :roll:

 

 

100% of that 99% wasn't using StarForce.

 

So that argument is invalid.

Ark

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Re: I've had enough

 

 

Stormin, any figures that you may tell us here ?

 

 

I am not at liberty to share that information as I am bound by a non-disclosure agreement. You're just going to have to trust me. I've seen the numbers.

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Well said and a valid point. Where is the indignation for the act of piracy?

 

It's difficult to feel indignation without any data. Perhaps a producer who knows how many units were sold and how many uninterrupted patches were subsequently downloaded can appreciate a "feel" of the damage on an emotional level that the rest of us cannot, but for the average user to whom such figures are denied, piracy is just an abstract violation of principle.

 

We want ED to have sales, regardless of thefts. Just because someone will steal it if they can steal it, doesn't mean they would actually buy it if they can't steal it. For all the brouhaha, studies have suggested the music download phenomenon had hardly any impact at all on actual CD sales. If copy protection had any demonstrable record of transforming pirates into honest, paying customers, that would be something we could get behind. Otherwise it all seems kind of petty, and it's a valid question to wonder who is your real target market and what the copy protection is actually for - just to deny the pirates their fun, at added expense to ourselves? Don't we have better things to do than to wrestle with pigs? Falcon 3 and 4 used no copy protection at all. Will there be more than one pirate turned into a paying customer by adding copy protection, for every customer that is lost by it? We're talking about a Su-25T add-on here, to a product that is otherwise already available without the protection. Would you make that trade yourself, Stormin? A Su-25T, in exchange for your sense of "freedom"? I'd do it, but purely out of charity for ED - a quality I doubt we will find in many would-be pirates.

 

Of course, things may be different in Russia, where police are corrupt, pirated software is sold in public, and a lack of copy protection is perceived as an unspoken endorsement of the illegal version. If ED, living and working in such an environment, is unable to understand the Falcon 3/4 approach and how it could work in the west, I could forgive them.

 

Fingers crossed,

 

-SK

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it doesn't work because 99% of all games with any sort of protection have been cracked. How is 99% "not working"? :roll:

 

 

100% of that 99% wasn't using StarForce.

 

So that argument is invalid.

 

Panzers, Colin McRae 2005 and Toca Racedriver 2 are the games with SF 3.0 that I know of and which all got cracked. HL 2 too (Steam based though).

 

I made a post with the proof that those exist, but it got deleted, which is perfectly understandable. Sorry mods, I only wanted to back up that fact. Do some research and you will find the proof.

 

So this leads me to the conclusion that this CP will be cracked too. Maybe I'm wrong. But this would be the first secure CP.

 

So the only positive thing is the delay of a warez version created by the CP. And I really doubt this is worth all the fuzz.

 

All this is only business view.

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Panzers, Colin McRae 2005 and Toca Racedriver 2 are the games with SF 3.0 that I know of and which all got cracked. HL 2 too (Steam based though).

 

I made a post with the proof that those exist, but it got deleted, which is perfectly understandable. Sorry mods, I only wanted to back up that fact. Do some research and you will find the proof.

 

@Chizh, Stormin, Wags:

 

Is this true ?

Was the posting made by this fellow deleted ?

 

I understand that this is a moderated forum, however if somebody's messages are deleted because he shows proof for his claims, it becomes unfair and suspicious.

 

In the end, it was nobody of the guests on this forum, who came up with Starforce in the first place - it was ED or some of the devs putting Starforce - intentionally or not - into the demo of FC.

 

That started all this hazzle - don't punish people for stating their opinion.

Very disappointing. It begins to become political here ... :x

kind regards,

Raven....

[sigpic]http://www.crc-mindreader.de/CRT/images/Birds2011.gif[/sigpic]

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