1.1 Copy Protection Update

[schimmel]

That started all this hazzle - don't punish people for stating their opinion.

Very disappointing. It begins to become political here ... :x

 

Naw, it was perfectly ok, really. I posted names of sites (not links, I'm not that dumb :D), where you get links to illegal files of games on a p2p network. I don't think they deleted my post because of my opinion.

 

IMO, nothing to worry about.

[AnzacPT]

IMO, censoring the names of the sites would be enough.

 

yeah, i saw your post. didn´t bother me though.

 

but there was other content on the post apart from that.

 

deleting the offending names would have been enough, i think....

[Stormin]

Well said and a valid point. Where is the indignation for the act of piracy?

 

It's difficult to feel indignation without any data. Perhaps a producer who knows how many units were sold and how many uninterrupted patches were subsequently downloaded can appreciate a "feel" of the damage on an emotional level that the rest of us cannot, but for the average user to whom such figures are denied, piracy is just an abstract violation of principle.

 

We want ED to have sales, regardless of thefts. Just because someone will steal it if they can steal it, doesn't mean they would actually buy it if they can't steal it. For all the brouhaha, studies have suggested the music download phenomenon had hardly any impact at all on actual CD sales. If copy protection had any demonstrable record of transforming pirates into honest, paying customers, that would be something we could get behind. Otherwise it all seems kind of petty, and it's a valid question to wonder who is your real target market and what the copy protection is actually for - just to deny the pirates their fun, at added expense to ourselves? Don't we have better things to do than to wrestle with pigs? Falcon 3 and 4 used no copy protection at all. Will there be more than one pirate turned into a paying customer by adding copy protection, for every customer that is lost by it? We're talking about a Su-25T add-on here, to a product that is otherwise already available without the protection. Would you make that trade yourself, Stormin? A Su-25T, in exchange for your sense of "freedom"? I'd do it, but purely out of charity for ED - a quality I doubt we will find in many would-be pirates.

 

Of course, things may be different in Russia, where police are corrupt, pirated software is sold in public, and a lack of copy protection is perceived as an unspoken endorsement of the illegal version. If ED, living and working in such an environment, is unable to understand the Falcon 3/4 approach and how it could work in the west, I could forgive them.

 

Fingers crossed,

 

-SK

 

I don't need data to feel indignation about thieves.

 

It all a reflection of the current times. During Falcon 3 and 4 the amount of piracy was much lower and the number of sites on the internet were much fewer where you could obtain illegal copies. The technology has changed drastically in only a few short years.

 

I'n personally not interested in reforming pirates. I would rather seem them either prosecuted or executed, frankly. :D

 

Personally, anything that even slows down the pirates or prevents casual "buddy" piracy is fine with me. It's my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

[Stormin]

 

Panzers, Colin McRae 2005 and Toca Racedriver 2 are the games with SF 3.0 that I know of and which all got cracked. HL 2 too (Steam based though).

 

I made a post with the proof that those exist, but it got deleted, which is perfectly understandable. Sorry mods, I only wanted to back up that fact. Do some research and you will find the proof.

 

@Chizh, Stormin, Wags:

 

Is this true ?

Was the posting made by this fellow deleted ?

 

I understand that this is a moderated forum, however if somebody's messages are deleted because he shows proof for his claims, it becomes unfair and suspicious.

 

In the end, it was nobody of the guests on this forum, who came up with Starforce in the first place - it was ED or some of the devs putting Starforce - intentionally or not - into the demo of FC.

 

That started all this hazzle - don't punish people for stating their opinion.

Very disappointing. It begins to become political here ... :x

 

Let's get something straight, I don't work for TFC/ED and have nothing to do or say with respect to how they run their forums. Please don't ask me about something for which I have no responsibility. I sure as hell had nothing to do with your message being deleted, edited, or ignored. I also have had nothing to do with the decisions that are being made with respect to the development, distribution, copy protection, or any other aspect of the Flaming Cliffs V1.1 upgrade. I am only stating my opinions and either agreeing or disagreeing with other forum members.

 

Stop acting like you've been slighted or repressed. If you don't like the decision that has been made then don't buy the game. I think it is silly that some of you are overreacting about something for which you don't have all the facts. Wait until TFC/ED provides exact details about how they will be using the copy protection routine. It is my understanding that how they configure it and what version they use will determine the level of protection and "intrusion" into your sensitive lives.

 

My only criticism of TFC/ED is that they should make a statement to clear all of this silly business once and for all.

 

Your claim that TFC/ED is making this political or that they have somehow impuned your rights is ridiculous. Nobody is forcing you to participate here or making you buy their products.

[Stormin]

We are all guests here with not rights. If TFC/Ed wants to delete, edit, or change the color of your fonts they can do so. This is a private-owned forum.

 

If anyone doesn't like how it is run then don't participate here or, better yet, start your own forum.

 

Do I need to keep repeating that I do not speak for TFC/ED and that my opinions are mine and not theirs?

[MonnieRock]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have a few questions if I may ask

 

 

1) Will the CD version from Russia be able to run with the English version of 1.2?

 

2) Will the CD version from Russia contain Starforce?

 

3) Is Lock-on still able to be purchased in Russia?

 

 

Few things about me are, everytime I get a new pc(3 times a year) I still load up my beloved Janes F/A-18. Janes is gone, but I am still playing the simulation. What will I do when SF or ED is gone? Will buying the Russian CD's prevent me from this problem. I can learn cyrllic, but I can not enjoy software when the method of activation is gone.

 

 

Thank you in advance for the replies. I hope someone from ED shows up with the answers, not rumors from people that do not know or used to work with them.

 

Monnie

[Dmut]

1) Will the CD version from Russia be able to run with the English version of 1.2?

 

2) Will the CD version from Russia contain Starforce?

 

3) Is Lock-on still able to be purchased in Russia?

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you in advance for the replies. I hope someone from ED shows up with the answers, not rumors from people that do not know or used to work with them.

 

Monnie

Hello Monnie

1) not sure about 1.2 since it isn't announced, but you can install English LO:FC 1.1 Add-on over Russian LO 1.0 or 1.01, or 1.02. However, you will have to use activations, since English 1.1 Add-on uses different copy protection methods then Russian CD versions use.

2) yes, SF Pro version, that use not activations, but CD protection.

3) yes. you will be able to purchase old LO 1.0 or 1.01, or new LO: Flaming Cliffs. But old LO CD's will be gone from market soon after LO:FC release.

 

Will buying the Russian CD's prevent me from this problem. I can learn cyrllic, but I can not enjoy software when the method of activation is gone.

you will have a choice: to use Russian version of LO:FC 1.1 with CD protection, or to use English LO:FC as Add-on for LO 1.0x with activation protection.

[earlybird]

you will have a choice: to use Russian version of LO:FC 1.1 with CD protection, or to use English LO:FC as Add-on for LO 1.0x with activation protection.

I wonder will we be able to mix'n'match: buy the CD, then partially populate the install from download (unactivated) to get the crucial EN files for menus and so on?

 

I see a new definition of 'hardcore' coming: it used to be 'cyrillic hud'. Now it will be cyrillic menus, Russian Betty, etc etc :)

 

Mike

[earlybird]

Here is another solution: a windows system install fits into less that 1G. Given how cheap HD space is these days, why not create a new partition for lomac alone. The benefits are that you can keep it nice and minimal with small registry, minimal services, minimal drivers etc. If SF causes system instability or security anxieties then these are kept confined. You can then retain full confidence in your main install.

 

Rebooting to a dedicated partition for games in not a big time-waster in general; I do it anyway system hogs like LOMAC. Another plus is that if you image it before you install your games then you can go back to a clean sheet very easily if you are worried that things are going wrong.

 

Mike

[MonnieRock]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have a few questions if I may ask

 

 

1) Will the CD version from Russia be able to run with the English version of 1.2?

 

2) Will the CD version from Russia contain Starforce?

 

3) Is Lock-on still able to be purchased in Russia?

 

 

Few things about me are, everytime I get a new pc(3 times a year) I still load up my beloved Janes F/A-18. Janes is gone, but I am still playing the simulation. What will I do when SF or ED is gone? Will buying the Russian CD's prevent me from this problem. I can learn cyrllic, but I can not enjoy software when the method of activation is gone.

 

 

Thank you in advance for the replies. I hope someone from ED shows up with the answers, not rumors from people that do not know or used to work with them.

 

Monnie

 

 

Whoops made a typo I meant English 1.02 :shock:

 

So the Russian FC will not need to be activated after the so called 40% hardware change?

 

 

Guess I need to look into purchasing both a CD of Lockon and FC from Russia. Any help in doing that or where I should start? I do not mind spending the money for the CD's, I just want to have it on my shelf for years to come.

 

On a side note, it might take a few years for hardware to catch up to Lockon and FC, would like to be able to enjoy that day :D

 

Thanks,

Monnie

[arraamis]

First post after reading these forums since Flanker 1.00 day's....so here goes.... :)

 

The three main issues on CP which started this off were

 

1. Starforce security has been questioned which is a clear concern

to all who intend to have this on their system.

 

2. Starforce sends back details of the system FC is installed in back to

a central server, what info is sent and how it is used has not been

detailed.

 

3. Starforce need to show how they intend to continue supporting the game

in the long term to allow customers to play a game they have already

purchased. Software companies go bust and get aquired (ask ED) so this

is a genuine concern.

 

Thanks for adding that valuable bit of information ....

 

My biggest problem with SF and many other companies implementation of software protection today, is that it relies on access to the internet for activation and it has central storage of the collected information.

 

NO internet access = NO verification = NO you can't use the software you purchased legally. :cry:

 

Another huge issue is allowing the SF company access to information on my PC and storing that info on central servers.

 

In this age of security breeches and loss of privacy, I'm not about to let another company store registration information about me just to activate a game. I think that's a bit toooo much to ask.

 

With the risks involved, its just not worth it. Is SF and its affiliates going to assume responsibility if their security dartabase is compromised???? I think NOT. :evil:

 

Also, in terms of longevity. In the future, I don't want to be seen tossing my cds out a window, just because I can't validate and use them, because SF and its affiliates don't support it any longer or I dont have internet access.

 

Therefore, I think cd protection is the way to go, and the risks of illegal distribution is minimal ........... this isn't going to be a HALO3, where the masses are trying to get their hands on it.

 

Its a flight sim, and only a select few will go out of their way to get it.

 

 

And believe it or not many if not all true flight simmers are happy to buy this sim.

[golfsierra2]

 

Let's get something straight, I don't work for TFC/ED and have nothing to do or say with respect to how they run their forums. Please don't ask me about something for which I have no responsibility.

 

I was asking for your opinion about deleting messages here. I thought that you had noticed this deletion.

I sure as hell had nothing to do with your message being deleted, edited, or ignored.

Wasn't my message.

also have had nothing to do with the decisions that are being made with respect to the development, distribution, copy protection, or any other aspect of the Flaming Cliffs V1.1 upgrade. I am only stating my opinions and either agreeing or disagreeing with other forum members.

 

That was exactly what I was asking for - your opinion.

Stop acting like you've been slighted or repressed. If you don't like the decision that has been made then don't buy the game.

For sure the recent decisions made by ED concerning SF copy protection will have exactly that effect - potential customers not buying this game.

I think it is silly that some of you are overreacting about something for which you don't have all the facts. Wait until TFC/ED provides exact details about how they will be using the copy protection routine. It is my understanding that how they configure it and what version they use will determine the level of protection and "intrusion" into your sensitive lives.

Sure, we as customers don't have the facts, and ED is not doing well in keeping the community of potential buyers informed about issues like SF. They leave it up to freelancers like you to take the mess.

My only criticism of TFC/ED is that they should make a statement to clear all of this silly business once and for all.

Very good point. As said before, information flow from ED to the community could be much better than this.

Your claim that TFC/ED is making this political or that they have somehow impuned your rights is ridiculous. Nobody is forcing you to participate here or making you buy their products.

I was reflecting on deleting postings with critical content, which reminded me about censorship in Russian newspapers etc. Hope that I don't see a similar behavior starting here in this forum or I - and many others for sure - will abandone this forum and LO / FC as well. Surpressing unwanted opinions would do the ultimate kill to all this. I think you as an US citizen will see it the very same way - at least me as somebody from Western Europe looks at it that way.

[britgliderpilot]

Thanks for adding that valuable bit of information ....

 

My biggest problem with SF and many other companies implementation of software protection today, is that it relies on access to the internet for activation and it has central storage of the collected information.

 

NO internet access = NO verification = NO you can't use the software you purchased legally. :cry:

 

Given the addon is available as a download, it seems to be a fair bet that people buying it will have internet access.

 

I'm pretty sure I saw a quote saying you could activate it via email - write down the key generated by your machine, email it to StarForce, they give you your activation key.

 

Not as secure as using their secure server to do it directly, but it should work.

 

 

Another huge issue is allowing the SF company access to information on my PC and storing that info on central servers.

 

In this age of security breeches and loss of privacy, I'm not about to let another company store registration information about me just to activate a game. I think that's a bit toooo much to ask.

 

With the risks involved, its just not worth it. Is SF and its affiliates going to assume responsibility if their security dartabase is compromised???? I think NOT. :evil:

 

From what I've read, all information about your PC is stored ON your PC. What goes to StarForce is . . . what? 12 digits or something?

 

I don't know how much you can encode in 12 digits, but I'm willing to bet they won't make much sense unless you are StarForce . . . .

 

 

Also, in terms of longevity. In the future, I don't want to be seen tossing my cds out a window, just because I can't validate and use them, because SF and its affiliates don't support it any longer or I dont have internet access.

 

Yep, that bothers me a little as well.

 

 

Therefore, I think cd protection is the way to go, and the risks of illegal distribution is minimal ........... this isn't going to be a HALO3, where the masses are trying to get their hands on it.

 

Its a flight sim, and only a select few will go out of their way to get it.

 

CD distribution would certainly be preferred for the majority of us, but CD distribution just isn't a viable financial option right now. Eagle Dynamics do not have a publisher in the western world - Ubi dropped Lomac, but still hold the sole rights to the name and to publish it . . . . except for one independent addon.

 

ED would have to burn the CDs themselves and ship them out to us . . . . having quite a significant impact time and money.

 

See below for risks of illegal distribution.

 

 

And believe it or not many if not all true flight simmers are happy to buy this sim.

 

Then I guess the problem is that not all flight simmers are "true" flight simmers.

 

Ask Stormin to tell you about the Flanker 2.5 story one day . . . . .

[Pilotasso]

1) Will the CD version from Russia be able to run with the English version of 1.2?

 

2) Will the CD version from Russia contain Starforce?

 

3) Is Lock-on still able to be purchased in Russia?

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you in advance for the replies. I hope someone from ED shows up with the answers, not rumors from people that do not know or used to work with them.

 

Monnie

Hello Monnie

1) not sure about 1.2 since it isn't announced, but you can install English LO:FC 1.1 Add-on over Russian LO 1.0 or 1.01, or 1.02. However, you will have to use activations, since English 1.1 Add-on uses different copy protection methods then Russian CD versions use.

2) yes, SF Pro version, that use not activations, but CD protection.

3) yes. you will be able to purchase old LO 1.0 or 1.01, or new LO: Flaming Cliffs. But old LO CD's will be gone from market soon after LO:FC release.

 

Will buying the Russian CD's prevent me from this problem. I can learn cyrllic, but I can not enjoy software when the method of activation is gone.

you will have a choice: to use Russian version of LO:FC 1.1 with CD protection, or to use English LO:FC as Add-on for LO 1.0x with activation protection.

 

 

I would love to buy the CD version instead... It was being considered as an option to the western market at first, has this changed?

 

Another question, help me out in this:

I dont have VISA, my brother has, and he is in the US in the DLI institute in San antonio texas right now (he's an airforce cadet). How can I purchase the game?

I have thought that maybe my brother could purchace the products activation key, leaving the download for me. I am aware that only 1 of us can isntall (and be able to run) the game. Is this possible?

[Cosmonaut]

Wow 13 pages… Why do these announcements always happen when I don’t have time to visit the forums ;) .

 

Well ED have shown a great deal of respect for the community by investigating our concerns and they have shown themselves to be an honest and stand up company. I understand that they are in a pickle here, having to release an .exe over the internet and not having the luxury of releasing a cd to those of us not living in Russia. Personally I don’t support games that require internet activation, like the one ED has chosen. Don’t get me wrong I appreciate that ED are trying to protect their hard work and they believe they have found the best solution. However IMO these types of CP systems just serve to slow up the person that’s playing by the rules and they also open up “Pandora’s Box” with regards to those that are close to their final hard ware change or they just don’t want to jump through any more hoops after purchasing a game/addon.... But that’s a debate for another thread ;) ED have made their decision in an open and transparent manner that is above reproach even if you don’t agree with their final solution.

 

I hope FC is a great success for ED, they surely disserve it and I also hope that by the time 1.2 comes around it will be possible for ED to give us all of the opportunity of purchasing the CD version of their next addon.

 

Good luck!

[W-Natas]

What happens after the 3. change on my System? And what happens if i got a new complete system?

[golfsierra2]

What happens after the 3. change on my System? And what happens if i got a new complete system?

 

After changing about 40% of your hardware / or 3 major hardware /software changes, you'll have to ask for a new registration as far as I understood. It's a similar protection as with WinXp.

For a completely new system, you'll better call their hotline, explaining your situation.

 

(Und hör endlich auf, Dich für Dein Englisch zu entschuldigen ! Viele hier sprechen und schreiben die Sprache von Kindesbeinen an und haben teilweise eine grauenhafte Gramatik und Rechtschreibung ! Da fällt es gar nicht auf, wenn Du mal was falsch schreibst ! :D )

[DayGlow]

What happens after the 3. change on my System? And what happens if i got a new complete system?

 

After changing about 40% of your hardware / or 3 major hardware /software changes, you'll have to ask for a new registration as far as I understood. It's a similar protection as with WinXp.

For a completely new system, you'll better call their hotline, explaining your situation.

 

(Und hör endlich auf, Dich für Dein Englisch zu entschuldigen ! Viele hier sprechen und schreiben die Sprache von Kindesbeinen an und haben teilweise eine grauenhafte Gramatik und Rechtschreibung ! Da fällt es gar nicht auf, wenn Du mal was falsch schreibst ! :D )

 

whoa there, and where exactly did you get this info? Software changes? New system you'll have to call? You really shouldn't answer questions when you don't know the answer.

________

volcano vaporizers

Edited January 22, 2011 by DayGlow

[W-Natas]

I hope the hotline speaks german or at least english not russian.

Im afraid to get new system and then have to buy Lock on again, this would be worse. I dont want to play Lock On for 1 or 2 years, i want to play it as long as possible.

[golfsierra2]

What happens after the 3. change on my System? And what happens if i got a new complete system?

 

After changing about 40% of your hardware / or 3 major hardware /software changes, you'll have to ask for a new registration as far as I understood. It's a similar protection as with WinXp.

For a completely new system, you'll better call their hotline, explaining your situation.

 

(Und hör endlich auf, Dich für Dein Englisch zu entschuldigen ! Viele hier sprechen und schreiben die Sprache von Kindesbeinen an und haben teilweise eine grauenhafte Gramatik und Rechtschreibung ! Da fällt es gar nicht auf, wenn Du mal was falsch schreibst ! :D )

 

whoa there, and where exactly did you get this info? Software changes? New system you'll have to call? You really shouldn't answer questions when you don't know the answer.

 

This is what Wags posted in the first messsage of this thread:

 

"For the full version of 1.1, users may install the game as many times as they wish, there is no limit. They may re-register the game up to three times, but it will not be necessary to re-register unless you have changed over 40% of your hardware configuration. When uninstalling the full version of 1.1, all Starforce files will be removed. When installing 1.1, there is also a Starforce notification message. "

 

OK, I admit that he didn`t write a word about software at all, but if this copy protection works similar to how XP is secured from being transfered to another PC, it will notice major software changes as well.

About a new system (means new PC with new board, cpu and all) it for sure will require a new registration, let's say that you just keep the old hard drive in your new computer.

Does that make more sense to you ? :roll:

[DayGlow]

yes, but that's not what you said. A new computer is a new config, so it would use a registartion. That doesn't mean you have to phone them and hope they let you put it on a computer. It means you have to re-register with SF like you would if you swapped out 40% of your hardware.

 

There is nothing in their statements that says sofware effects change or that you would have to phone them up to change a computer. Also if you have followed the thread it's 5 re-registrations, not 3. Over that 5 it hasn't been cleared up how you would reset your registation count. That's the only issue that needs to be addressed.

________

digital vaporizers

Edited January 22, 2011 by DayGlow

[Skywall23]

yes, but that's not what you said. A new computer is a new config, so it would use a registartion. That doesn't mean you have to phone them and hope they let you put it on a computer. It means you have to re-register with SF like you would if you swapped out 40% of your hardware.

 

There is nothing in their statements that says sofware effects change or that you would have to phone them up to change a computer. Also if you have followed the thread it's 5 re-registrations, not 3. Over that 5 it hasn't been cleared up how you would reset your registation count. That's the only issue that needs to be addressed.

 

2x

[SwingKid]

It all a reflection of the current times. During Falcon 3 and 4 the amount of piracy was much lower and the number of sites on the internet were much fewer where you could obtain illegal copies. The technology has changed drastically in only a few short years.

...

Personally, anything that even slows down the pirates or prevents casual "buddy" piracy is fine with me. It's my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

 

Well, sure, agree to disagree, but, "buddy" piracy? I don't have the numbers and you don't seem to need them, but are you sure we're not applying standard software development concepts to a very non-standard piece of software?

 

As long as we have "threat missile padlock" mapped to two-hands Alt-KpDel, a rudder left key that actually provides less left rudder than by not pressing it, and no support for Num/Caps/Scroll Lock mode-switching keys, I think Lock On's default keyboard user interface is all the "casual" protection a game could need. The average combat flight simmer is 25-30 years old. What are we going to do, buddy-share the HOTAS, rudder pedals, TrackIR and video adapters needed to make this game enjoyable in secret meetings after Lamaze class? I've been simming in a big city for years and never met anyone I could PAY to look twice at a flight sim they didn't already own, the overhead and learning curve is that steep, and the existing fans that eager to buy. If some teenager in Moscow thinks he can copy his way to having fun with this product on the cheap, the joke is already on him. I mean if this was Harpoon, or something else one could enjoy with just a keyboard and mouse...

 

Reminds me the joke, "What's a fighter pilot's contraceptive?" - "His personality." :)

 

-SK

[golfsierra2]

yes, but that's not what you said. A new computer is a new config, so it would use a registartion. That doesn't mean you have to phone them and hope they let you put it on a computer. It means you have to re-register with SF like you would if you swapped out 40% of your hardware.

 

There is nothing in their statements that says sofware effects change or that you would have to phone them up to change a computer. Also if you have followed the thread it's 5 re-registrations, not 3. Over that 5 it hasn't been cleared up how you would reset your registation count. That's the only issue that needs to be addressed.

 

Thanks for clarifying that. :D

[leafer]

Hi, Swingkid.

 

There is an internet cafe down the street from where I live that I go to use the net on days I can't afford to buy internet card. I'm in it right now.

 

Last week, the owner, an avid gamer himself added 3 machines with driving wheels and to my surprise, a CH HOTAS with rudder! This machine has LOMAC, iL2 PF, and Wings over Vietnam so far. The owner knows I love flight sims cuz he always sees me there drooling over FC screenshots.

 

And I know for a fact these internet cafe places buy pirated software to install on their machines.

 

I'll admit that it was quite tempting cuz it's been over a year and I'm dying to play LOMAC. But I just couldn't bring myself to play it. I admit that I do play other FPS games there. :oops: :P