F-15e Update?

[YoYo]

3 minutes ago, stonewall197922 said:

When user buy module to DCS, it`s agreement between user and ED. So if Razbam put further support and development on hold (or completly stopped), ED should support and develop module by itself. Official statement from ED is required at current state. I also suggest to put on hold sales of the affected modeles.  It definitely have consequences  on  sales from other modules.

In such a situation, ED should purchase a model license and develop it for customers itself, but let's add up and come down to earth - this is impossible due to human resources and financial outlays.

Edited April 5, 2024 by YoYo

[stonewall197922]

12 минут назад, YoYo сказал:

In such a situation, ED should purchase a model license and develop it for customers itself, but let's add up and come down to earth - this is impossible due to human resources and financial outlays.

 

ED concluded agreement with Razbam. When you buy module (in case  of official DCS store) its agreement between buyer (YOU) and seller  (ED).   This is act of transferring money from Your bank account to ED bank account. So in this case, ED should further develop module and support it or refund it. Its up to ED to rule this situation.

Edited April 5, 2024 by stonewall197922

[Chaffee]

4 hours ago, Jarhead0331 said:

It wouldn’t be the first time, nor the last, that a party to a contract breached confidentiality or non-disparagement provisions. As a lawyer and commercial litigator, I see it all the time and it’s no indicator of who is in the legal right here with respect to the underlying dispute. Furthermore, and largely depending on the language of the contractual provisions, even if ED breached first in some way with respect to payment, it would most likely not permit Razbam to violate any other provision of the contract, nor serve as any meritorious defense to such a claim.

This is the only factual thing I've seen posted on the topic in any forum. Thank you.

The amount of "I saw someone say something in a forum on the internet so it must be true" speculation is absurd.

[Николай Ушаков]

Looks like some bull<profanity> from Razbam

[Николай Ушаков]

1 час назад, stonewall197922 сказал:

When user buy module to DCS, it`s agreement between user and ED. So if Razbam put further support and development on hold (or completly stopped), ED should support and develop module by itself. Official statement from ED is required at current state. I also suggest to put on hold sales of the affected modeles.  It definitely have consequences  on  sales from other modules.

Yeah, I believe ED has seen something similar before (with WW2 planes?) with one of the devs dropping out and making ED work on module themselves

[TonyRS]

Recently released statements by both RAZBAM & ED are most disheartening!
I’m sure the contract ED & RAZBAM have is detailed and comprehensive. And, I am sure it will recognise that, from time to time, there may well be contractual disputes. I am also sure that there will be clauses in this contract that specify how such disputes will be resolved or arbitrated.
The public statements made by both are extremely damaging for the whole DCS community. I have invested in many mods & all maps for DCS. However, given the current state of affairs it seems difficult to have any confidence that anything I may purchase will be completed & maintained in the long term. Therefore, I’ve decided that, until this matter is resolved amicably, and assurances given by both parties confirming their commitment to DCS and the continued development of these modules, I will NOT be making ANY more purchases AT ALL. Which, in the short term means I have cancelled my intention to purchase Afghan/Kola maps & F-4 Phantom.
Do get the matter sorted, soonest, privately, through the proper channels.

[Gary]

Can anyone please confirm my understanding below?

If I recall correctly, when the Hawk development "broke" with another developer - I seem to recall ED saying they had changed some terms and conditions in relation to working with 3rd parties and that it was a requirement of said 3rd parties to effectively hand over the source code should the developer remove themselves from the DCS platform.

Did I dream that or is the above basically correct?

Obviously if it is true -and Razbam withdraw from the DCS platform maybe ED can continue with the Razbam modules development?

Razbam are in a relatively weak position I would argue if the above is correct.

Edited April 5, 2024 by Gary

[Snappy]

2 hours ago, Gary said:

Can anyone please confirm my understanding below?

If I recall correctly, when the Hawk development "broke" with another developer - I seem to recall ED saying they had changed some terms and conditions in relation to working with 3rd parties and that it was a requirement of said 3rd parties to effectively hand over the source code should the developer remove themselves from the DCS platform.

Did I dream that or is the above basically correct?

Obviously if it is true -and Razbam withdraw from the DCS platform maybe ED can continue with the Razbam modules development?

Razbam are in a relatively weak position I would argue if the above is correct.

 

There are several problems with this..

A) Even if Razbams really withdraws completely from DCS , ED may not have the entire strike eagle source code yet. Even if there were contractual requirements to hand over the code in case of withdrawal , Razbam could, at least hypothetically,for example be hot-headed and flat out refuse. Then ED would have to resort to legal measures and that could take a long while to sort out. I'm not saying Razbam would do this.

B)Even if ED got the code from the code from either Razbam directly or after sueing or whatever, ED would need to get familiar with that huge heap of  code, before they could start to work on it. I assume this would also take longer, since the F15E is a quite complex aircraft/module.

C) Even after getting familiar with the code , the F-15E is as mentioned , complex and I really don't ED having the capacity or spare employees to take on an additional project of this size and complexity and bug-fix and further develop it. Just look at the glacial pace of developement on their own modules, ( most of them in EA and unfinished) , they seem continously overstretched and regularly bust their own timeline estimate by large margins. They  have announced the next few EA modules in developement ( Mig-29,Chinook, 2 Maps, etc etc.). I really don't see them successfully updating and developing this , even if they took it on.

So no, I wouldn't say Razbam is in a weak position. Regardless of which side you wish to take , from a customer standpoint and PR standpoint, this has been very very bad for ED as well, not only Razbam

 

Edited April 5, 2024 by Snappy

[felixx75]

Since we simply don't know enough about what is really happening, it makes no sense at all to speculate wildly or paint the devil on the wall. Simply wait and see what happens or until proper information is available. Then you can always react accordingly.

Making any assumptions does not help anyone.

[Wacko_ZA]

2 hours ago, Gary said:

Can anyone please confirm my understanding below?

If I recall correctly, when the Hawk development "broke" with another developer - I seem to recall ED saying they had changed some terms and conditions in relation to working with 3rd parties and that it was a requirement of said 3rd parties to effectively hand over the source code should the developer remove themselves from the DCS platform.

Did I dream that or is the above basically correct?

Obviously if it is true -and Razbam withdraw from the DCS platform maybe ED can continue with the Razbam modules development?

Razbam are in a relatively weak position I would argue if the above is correct.

 

So on this, After burning my fingers with VAEO and the hawk... there seems to be rumors, from razbam themselves, that ED DO IN FACT NOT have the source code for at least the F15... 
Was this the trigger of it all, or a large part to it.

[Njinsa]

Agreed.

Details on dispute slowly emerging to the surface...seems like RB is cornered.

No going to take sides here, but bad had just become worse.

 

[Bluto74]

Just for my understanding when reading the reddit post, who is Metal2Mesh?  A RB person or someone on the outside?

[Njinsa]

RB dev, 3D/art.

[Gary]

1 hour ago, felixx75 said:

Since we simply don't know enough about what is really happening, it makes no sense at all to speculate wildly or paint the devil on the wall. Simply wait and see what happens or until proper information is available. Then you can always react accordingly.

Making any assumptions does not help anyone.

For the avoidance of any doubt - I wasn't taking side or painting either party as the culprit. As has been said a number of times we simply don't know the details to even form an opinion.

What I was doing and seems ligitamate to do so was considering best and worse case outcomes.

[OldFlyer]

8 minutes ago, Bluto74 said:

Just for my understanding when reading the reddit post, who is Metal2Mesh?  A RB person or someone on the outside?

He’s the guy that basically did all the artwork on the F15E. Feels like a massive loss.

[felixx75]

4 minutes ago, Gary said:

[...]

What I was doing and seems ligitamate to do so was considering best and worse case outcomes.

However, this is fueling fears and anxieties without there being any reason to do so for the time being. What's more, things like this quickly escalate and tend to get out of control, ending in false allegations and accusations

[Bluto74]

Got it.  Thanks guys.

 

[Gary]

6 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

However, this is fueling fears and anxieties without there being any reason to do so for the time being. What's more, things like this quickly escalate and tend to get out of control, ending in false allegations and accusations

I'm flattered you think I personally have so much influence!!

Anyone who is involved in DCS on a number of platforms will have read what is out there and formed their own adult opinion I'm sure - rather than be spooked by what "Gary" thought on the DCS forum.

Edited April 5, 2024 by Gary

[nessuno0505]

RB halted the development, that's no fear nor anxiety, that's a fact. 

[dfpoor]

14 hours ago, Cypher1o1 said:

 

(Side note I'm not sure anyone is making millions on youtube from dcs content) 

 

Off topic so I will try to be as brief as possible.  Growling Sidewinder has 197,417,091 views.  Youtube pays $0.025 per view.  Thus Growling has $4,935,427.25 Youtube income.  Not too shabby.  And there are others.  Maybe Growling can buy Razbam?  Wags hasn't made a video in 3 months.  Spring vacation, or something more sinister?  I think I bought Flanker 2.0 in 1999.  25 years later I thought ED was going to make it.  After 3 decades I thought ED was going to make it!

[YoYo]

Razbam and Metal2Mesh was very know (and very good) developers from FS2004, FSX and P3D time. They left the FSX market for DCS completely and it was a big loss for FSX fans, so if they will not come to an agreement (or more ED) Im sure that they back to MSFS / MSFS2024 market. Many are waiting for him! 

[nessuno0505]

Maybe that kind of sim suits them better.

[YoYo]

2 hours ago, Njinsa said:

Agreed.

Details on dispute slowly emerging to the surface...seems like RB is cornered.

No going to take sides here, but bad had just become worse.

 

The only question is what engine should this Tucano run on in this training program, because if its the "free" DCS World, ED may actually be right in terms of IP violations. We don't know the contract, but logically there is probably no problem that a model with DCS or which is planned for DCS would appear on a different platform (owner is 3th party) - for example, F-14 Heatblur and MSFS. Maybe that's why they were mentioned by Razbam.

I'm waiting for the MiG-23 for DCS! 

[PLUTON]

Razbam leaves flight simulator to get involved with DCS and now
What's wrong with ED anymore?
Either Razbam is demanding or is loyalty not their virtue?

[ebabil]

so for us who bought f-15e; are we new generation of Hawk customers? Promoted from tranier victims to twin jet fighter victims?