Cachya vs. TrackIR-RESURRECTED!

[LastRifleRound]

Ok, so I've had cachya for about 1 week now, been playing with it alot. Couple points on anyone who is interested in getting Cachya:

 

1.) It COULD take a LOOOOOONG time to get it working right with Black Shark. Well for me any way. Sharkster got his up in a couple hours, it took me days. Your mileage may vary.

 

2.) The tracking I get on my machine is not smooth. There is lag between the time I move my head, and the time the view changes. I do not know if this is because of my machine's age, or if this is a limitation of using a stock webcam to perform head tracking. Max FPS is 30 with the webcam, I think TrackIR is much much higher than this.

 

3.) It takes ALOT of tweaking due to the nature of the curves in game and how they interact with the sensitivity settings in cachya to get it working to a playable state.

 

4.) Lighting is important, you must make sure, as Sharkster said, to have light behind your monitor

 

5.) You must make a very good, RIGID head sign, or the software will misinterpret yaw for pitch, zoom for roll, etc. as it tries to track changes in the shape in 3 dimensions

 

6.) You must be lined up perfectly with your webcam, or the software will confuse input (not really confuse, you just won't be moving your head at the angles you think you are relative to center).

 

Now, let me say, the software is WAYYYYYYY better than not using any head tracking. I can already do alot more than I did before. Sharkster is a good resource if you want to really get into it, he's got his precise enough to use HMS.

 

My question is, are there similar limitations with TrackIR? I can't compare it to TrackIR as I have never used it, but I know this was a hot-button issue on these boards, so I wanted to let everyone know my cachya experience so far.

[OJDee]

I guess the biggest difference between the two is cost and for that reason I'd be very disappointed in my purchase if I had any of the issues that you have mentioned with my TrackIR.

 

The only issue I have ever had with TIR is similar to your point 4. Lighting is important, although in this case it's more about not having anything in the TIR field of view that it might confuse with the leds on the headset. Other than that it works fine, smooth and accurate tracking and works out of the box with Black Shark.

 

Not sure what others' experience has been but I would recommend it if you can afford it.

[coder1024]

I've just started using cachya and have had an excellent experience with it so far. Since the price for cachya is dramatically lower than TrackIR, it doesn't even need to be as good in order to be a better choice imo. Hard to beat $15 :)

 

As for ease of use, I had it up and running and tracking my head in very little time. I was stuck for a bit trying to figure out how to configure things in BS, but the key was using the virtual joystick and just setting up the view axes.

 

I've never used TrackIR, so I can't really compare. However, a tracking setup for $15 is hard to beat. I'm sure TrackIR has some advantages, its just a matter of whether or not you want to spend the $$.

 

As for performance, I believe you can run cachya on a separate machine, plug the webcam into that machine, and then just connect over the network from the machine you're on. In this way, the other machine is doing all the image analysis and tracking of the target. If you're having performance issues this might be a good way to go. Not sure if TrackIR provides this sort of client/server mode.

[EtherealN]

Yeah, with the TrackIR you basically want to be real certain you dont introduce new reflections. It can discriminate between most incidental reflections and the reflectors simply through the reflectors being tailored to reflect the exact frequency range that the TrackIR is transmitting in, but I have found that if I get too close certain parts of my glasses will cause confusion for the TrackIR discrimination routines. (There are settings that can be tweaked to counter this though.)

 

But I find the occassional problem there to be worth it for the fact that the TrackIR can operate in pitch darkness since it is itself transmitting the light (be it light that is invisible to human eyes) that it uses to read your head movement. But of course, if you have other things that emit infra-red around you, this can cause unforeseen issues since by the IR's nature you might not even be aware of the fact that they transmit in the infrared. (In fact, most things that have any kind of heat do transmit IR, but usually the TrackIR will see the difference.)

[coder1024]

As for lighting conditions with cachya, I've found it works really well by just minimizing the amount of backlighting. So you don't want a light source behind you. Having one in front of you to illuminate the target is good, just not behind you to confuse the tracking.

[Safari Ken]

I'm not in front of my computer right now, but I'm pretty sure there's a threshold slider in the TrackIR options that can help defeat unwanted reflections. The only problem I've had I that arena is occasionally when I take a drag off my smoke, but it's rare, and I figure that it's my fault for trying to fly a combat helicopter with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth. :-)

 

As for cost, the $130 sort of disappears amongst the money I've spent on the computer, the HOTAS, the pedals, and the game. Why spend so much on my setup, and then suddenly get chintzy with the most important accessory of all? :-D

[Sharkster64]

As for cost, the $130 sort of disappears amongst the money I've spent on the computer, the HOTAS, the pedals, and the game. Why spend so much on my setup, and then suddenly get chintzy with the most important accessory of all? :-D

I don't understand what you mean by chintzy. Why spend $130 on something, when you can spend $15 on something that does the exact same thing. Cachya does the exact same thing as Track IR. 6DOF head tracking is what both devices do. Track IR doesn't do anything more than cachya. If Track IR would scratch my nuts and give me head tracking at the same time, then yeah I'll spend the extra $115. They do the same thing but in different ways. Apparently Track IR is a little easier to setup and may produce a higher frame rate, but that is the only advantage to Track IR. On my system, I haven't seen a significant drop in FPS to warrant paying for Track IR, and I had it up and running perfectly within a couple of hours. For me, it was money well spent.

[Safari Ken]

To each his own; $115 is $115, after all. That'll pay for my phone bill for a month, I guess. I just mean that if I drop around $2k on everything else, an extra $100 or so means little. I paid almost $200 for my power supply, for goodness' sake. If I were unemployed, or worked a crappy job or something, maybe I'd feel differently.

 

And sure the two products do the same thing, but I'm not yet convinced that they do it with the same quality. I don't think I've heard anything from people who have tried both on the same computer, to actually get a side-by-side comparison. I doubt that most webcams track at 120hz like TrackIR. Does that make a difference? Dunno, but I would think so.

 

Can someone who used Catchya and switched to TrackIR 4 chime in maybe, and give us the lowdown?

[Sharkster64]

And sure the two products do the same thing, but I'm not yet convinced that they do it with the same quality. I don't think I've heard anything from people who have tried both on the same computer, to actually get a side-by-side comparison. I doubt that most webcams track at 120hz like TrackIR. Does that make a difference? Dunno, but I would think so.

 

Can someone who used Catchya and switched to TrackIR 4 chime in maybe, and give us the lowdown?

 

Actually, I have already stated that I have tried out both Cachya and Track IR. That is why I am so enthusiastic about Cachya. I never tried Track IR on my system, but I tried it out on a friends system and his system was better than mine. As I have already stated on other posts, I didn't think that his Track IR tracked any better than Cachya. I was expecting it to be far superior to Cachya when I was trying it, but it worked the exact same way as Cachya. I didn't even have to learn how to use it, because it tracked on par with Cachya. The only downfall I had was that Track IR was getting confused with my glasses. It kept looking down and to the right every now and then and I had to reset the view to center. Apparently, you can adjust the settings in Track IR so that won't happen, but I didn't know at the time. Cachya runs very smooth on my system and after trying Track IR, I am very happy that I only spent $15 on Cachya. If you don't believe what I am saying, then suit yourself. I am the one laughing at everyone spending $130 on a product when they don't have to. :)

[PoleCat]

To each his own; $115 is $115, after all. That'll pay for my phone bill for a month, I guess. I just mean that if I drop around $2k on everything else, an extra $100 or so means little. I paid almost $200 for my power supply, for goodness' sake. If I were unemployed, or worked a crappy job or something, maybe I'd feel differently.

 

And sure the two products do the same thing, but I'm not yet convinced that they do it with the same quality. I don't think I've heard anything from people who have tried both on the same computer, to actually get a side-by-side comparison. I doubt that most webcams track at 120hz like TrackIR. Does that make a difference? Dunno, but I would think so.

 

Can someone who used Catchya and switched to TrackIR 4 chime in maybe, and give us the lowdown?

 

Couldn't agree more with this post. How would he know it does the same thing "as well" with only a few minutes at a friends house trying and failing to get TIR working well as evidence? Most of the time it is what is between the monitor and the chair that is the problem when people have issues with hardware. "Looking down and to the right" or "snapping off" is a rudimentary issue with TIR setup and is usually easily solved by any one who gives a minimum effort to read the support forums.

 

I would also like to see a side by side comparison as I have tried Free Track already and TIR just feels much better and more responsive to me.

TIR is likely the far better solution. Not because it costs more but because it is the standard to which these others have so far tried to reach and failed to achieve. When I fly I want my gear to be supported,completely customizable, and work without hassle and TIR fills that need for many of us perfectly well.

 

Worth every last cent.

 

Out

Edited April 30, 2009 by PoleCat

[PoleCat]

Ok, so I've had cachya for about 1 week now, been playing with it alot. Couple points on anyone who is interested in getting Cachya:

 

1.) It COULD take a LOOOOOONG time to get it working right with Black Shark. Well for me any way. Sharkster got his up in a couple hours, it took me days. Your mileage may vary.

 

2.) The tracking I get on my machine is not smooth. There is lag between the time I move my head, and the time the view changes. I do not know if this is because of my machine's age, or if this is a limitation of using a stock webcam to perform head tracking. Max FPS is 30 with the webcam, I think TrackIR is much much higher than this.

 

3.) It takes ALOT of tweaking due to the nature of the curves in game and how they interact with the sensitivity settings in cachya to get it working to a playable state.

 

4.) Lighting is important, you must make sure, as Sharkster said, to have light behind your monitor

 

5.) You must make a very good, RIGID head sign, or the software will misinterpret yaw for pitch, zoom for roll, etc. as it tries to track changes in the shape in 3 dimensions

 

6.) You must be lined up perfectly with your webcam, or the software will confuse input (not really confuse, you just won't be moving your head at the angles you think you are relative to center).

 

Now, let me say, the software is WAYYYYYYY better than not using any head tracking. I can already do alot more than I did before. Sharkster is a good resource if you want to really get into it, he's got his precise enough to use HMS.

 

My question is, are there similar limitations with TrackIR? I can't compare it to TrackIR as I have never used it, but I know this was a hot-button issue on these boards, so I wanted to let everyone know my cachya experience so far.

 

None of these issues have ever been a problem for me with TIR. Lighting behind you "can" potentially play a role, but is easily solved.

 

Fewer issues then this with TIR for sure. Enough said.

 

Out

Edited April 30, 2009 by PoleCat

[Sharkster64]

We could have this argument back and forth until we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day we will still believe what each other has experienced. Polecat, you have never tried Cachya, so you have no idea how well it works. You have tried Track IR and it works well for you. That is all fine. You have already purchased your setup and you are happy. I have already purchased Cachya and it worked well for me right away so I am happy. I have also tried a buddys Track IR which reaffirms my happiness with Cachya. I, as well, have never had any of those issues mentioned above with Cachya. It only took a couple hours of tweaking for me and I had it perfect.

 

ENOUGH SAID

 

OUT

[coder1024]

TIR is likely the far better solution. Not because it costs more but because it is the standard to which these others have so far tried to reach and failed to achieve. When I fly I want my gear to be supported,completely customizable, and work without hassle and TIR fills that need for many of us perfectly well.

I haven't heard any reasons why its a "far better solution". Nor have I heard anything which indicates that others have "tried to reach and failed to achieve". I've used cachya and it seems like a perfectly workable solution and seems to achieve exactly what its supposed to, namely provide 6DOF head tracking. Its supported very well in BS and is customizeable.

None of these issues have ever been a problem for me with TIR. Lighting behind you "can" potentially play a role, but is easily solved.

 

Fewer issues then this with TIR for sure. Enough said.

Nor have they been a problem for me with cachya. Honestly, when I started BS, I was at the point where I assumed I finally needed to just spend the $150 and get TrackIR (to get TrackIR + headset clip). It was at that point I happened across a link for cachya that someone else had posted. All I know is that I only paid $15 and I have 6DOF head tracking. I wouldn't be surprised if TrackIR has better performance in some areas, I just don't see anything compelling in the discussions on the two products which would clarify what the actual benefit is.

Edited April 30, 2009 by coder1024

[PoleCat]

Ok guys obviously we disagree. I find TIR far better then the web cam solution I have tried and it does not take a couple of hours to get working right. My time is worth the extra money to have what I consider to be a problem free solution. If you are happy with cachya then great for you. I am not going to get into the hardware specs on everything although I have confidence that TIR is better for its purpose then Free track is. I have not tried cachya and will likely not bother to. In honesty the first post "is" a user review on it and it does not look so good to me by comparison.

 

Out

[Skkuda]

Sorry...couldn´t resist to participate.

 

My respect to the people who wants Freetrack and Cachya. But I personally agree with polecat.

worth the money (It hurts obviously) but worth.

In my particular case i´m useless at bricolage :doh:, so I couldn´t get to make the hardware part.

and by the other side I´m not good at waiting things to be done, so I bought Tir.

Lovely product who never disapointed me!:)

 

Just my opinion

 

Skkuda

[CyBerkut]

Oddly enough, an examination of the FreeTrack community's experience will clarify one benefit. Mainly, that web cam based solutions impose a higher processing load upon the CPU than the specialized hardware alternative(s), and have a much lower frames per second (talking about the tracking, as opposed to the game display FPS). FreeTrack has alternatives to web cam use, which allows one to see the direct effect of using different hardware with the same software. Older versions of FreeTrack supported the TrackIR hardware. Web cam setups typically got aound 30 FPS whereas TrackIR hardware with FreeTrack would get around 100 FPS. The later versions of FreeTrack support another hardware option, namely the use of a Wiimote instead of a webcam. Wiimote usage with FreeTrack also typically yeilds approximately 100 FPS tracking, and also imposes virtually no load upon the CPU.

 

It's all tradeoffs. If Cachya is getting the job done to your satisfaction, cooll! Some folks will inevitably want to offload the processing from their CPU, or be able to play in a room without visible lighting, or ...

[Sharkster64]

I have heard of plenty of people having to tweak Track IR. For $150 I would expect you not having to tweak it. Spending a couple hours of tweaking my cheaper alternative, is not a reason for me to go and buy Track IR. Apparently if you wear glasses, you have to tweak Track IR. I wear glasses, so if I am tweaking both alternatives, I would rather go with the cheaper alternative. The end result was awesome. I wouldn't say that tweaking my setup and taking a couple hours to do that is a real issue. I had fun doing it. To each their own. There is another thread right now, talking about the view centering after so long with Track IR. I wouldn't call that a very good review either. That is certainly not an issue with Cachya. One persons opinion certainly isn't everyones opinion. Goes for both setups.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Sharkster64

[Safari Ken]

Ok guys obviously we disagree.

 

First off, :lol: at this entire thread. We're all obviously happy with our choices, yet we keep trying to convince each other anway. :joystick:

 

I'm not disagreeing with anyone. Everyone who uses Cachya (and then writes about it) says nice things about it, so I'm sure it's nice. Everyone who uses TrackIR pees their pants with sheer enthusiam, so it's nice too.

 

I'll bet a lot of how well Cachya works is dependent on the quality of the webcam. I've never owned a webcam (and probably never will, unless it's forced on me), but what I've seen hasn't exactly been impressive. I'm sure the quality is highly variable, however, from brand to brand and model to model.

 

Tweaking TrackIR is not about getting it to work. It works right out of the gate. The tweaking is in customizing the acceleration curves of each axis (if one feels the need) to fit with the way you play. For example, I prefer FSX to be a little less sensitive in the down and zoom axes, and I prefer BS to be a bit slower in the middle of turning your head than on the extremes. And on all my profiles, I flattened the curves in the translational axes. It's customizable to an amazing degree. The idea is that it's all personal preference, so NaturalPoint gives 100% control over that stuff (maybe the alternatives do too; I don't know). But you don't HAVE to tweak it.

[Sharkster64]

That is exactly what I meant about tweaking. Setting up Cachya is a breeze and only takes a minute. It is the same as setting up a joystick. All you have to do is set up which axis is used for what input. The tweaking is all just setting up sensitivites and curves. I totally agree with you Safari about everyone is happy with what they have experienced. I am in no way saying that Track IR is bad. I just think its nice to have a cheaper alternative. You don't really HAVE to tweak cachya either. Here is a video of myself using cachya to take out some targets with the helmet mounted sight if anyone is interested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJO4Y7pHJNM

[PoleCat]

I have heard of plenty of people having to tweak Track IR. For $150 I would expect you not having to tweak it. Spending a couple hours of tweaking my cheaper alternative, is not a reason for me to go and buy Track IR. Apparently if you wear glasses, you have to tweak Track IR. I wear glasses, so if I am tweaking both alternatives, I would rather go with the cheaper alternative. The end result was awesome. I wouldn't say that tweaking my setup and taking a couple hours to do that is a real issue. I had fun doing it. To each their own. There is another thread right now, talking about the view centering after so long with Track IR. I wouldn't call that a very good review either. That is certainly not an issue with Cachya. One persons opinion certainly isn't everyones opinion. Goes for both setups.

 

I wear glasses at the PC all the time and I do not have to tweak TIR at all for it. What I think most people are doing with the TIR software is creating and customizing their specific game files not tweaking the unit to work correctly. TIR supports game specific profiles and you can customize them (or not)to your hearts content. They will auto load at launch of your favorite sim as TIR is natively supported by the titles. One thing is for sure it works and it works well pretty much automatically. The precison is so good that over time you tweak your files to be more responsive as you get used to using it.

 

It is $150 for the unit and the Track Clip Pro but only $129 for the unit and the vector clip. Also some sim sites have direct links to money off coupons as well. SimHQ etc. Can save another 10-15 on the purchase usually.

 

That being said I am stoked that you guys have head tracking and enjoy it.

It really does bring flight sims to a new level and being without this as a regular part of any gaming setup would really blow. The price is certainly right!

 

Happy Flying and looking around.

 

Peace Out:joystick:

[Guest]

FWIW, I have been using a TrackIR for years. Never once had any problem or had to configure/tweak anything. Works perfectly out of the box. Extemely responsive, accurate and no noticeable CPU load for me.

Edited May 1, 2009 by wombat778

[Redeye26]

I spent a bit of time tweaking my profile for track ir but at the end of the day it worked out the box with a warranty , customer support , not a thought of frame rate drops , and a forum and updated drivers every few months . I'm a lasy bastard and i would rather save and spend £130 for the 4 pro including the track clip and get a seal of approval from the likes of ED . Love track ir , couldnt live without it , and apart from a few niggles as i said it worked out the box . Plus i get the peace of mind that if it does break , Bob at RC sims will replace it no q's asked .

 

Each to thier own , track ir for me . I aint knocking those that went for cachya.

[Safari Ken]

That being said I am stoked that you guys have head tracking and enjoy it.

It really does bring flight sims to a new level and being without this as a regular part of any gaming setup would really blow.

 

That's the important thing! Head tracking ftw! :thumbsup:

[Sharkster64]

I spent $15. If it doesn't work or if it stops working after a while, oh well, it's only $15. At that price, I could care less if it is under warranty. That is the only reason I tried it. It cost the same as going to a movie these days. If it gave me just one days enjoyment, I'd be happy. But, it has given me 3 months of enjoyment. :thumbup: If I were to buy Track IR for $130, then yes, I would expect a warranty and the whole nine yards. So I totally agree with you on that note Redeye. At least we have Head Tracking Software, that is all that matters. :joystick:

[Sharkster64]

Originally posted by LastRifleRound

2.) The tracking I get on my machine is not smooth. There is lag between the time I move my head, and the time the view changes. I do not know if this is because of my machine's age, or if this is a limitation of using a stock webcam to perform head tracking. Max FPS is 30 with the webcam, I think TrackIR is much much higher than this.

 

Sorry, I just noticed this comment on your post. I am wondering if you have the deadzone set too high. Turn your deadzone all the way down on Cachya and the game. I have just a very very slight deadzone on mine. I remember fiddling with the deadzone one time and had it too high. It created the exact same response you are describing. I bet this will solve your problem. :thumbup: