Petition to Prioritize MiG-21 Update? Anyone?

[Schmidtfire]

MiG-21bis module was released 10 years ago, the first true 3rd party module. Diving back in is like bringing a museum piece to life again. But it is the most produced super-sonic aircraft in history. THE classic redfor aircraft. It's got plenty of commercial appeal. Question is rather if the dev team can find some excitement in working on the MiG-21bis module again. I'm not sure Magnitude 3 has any passion and joy left for it.

Edited August 19 by Schmidtfire

[kotor633]

I would join this petition immediately.

[Mainstay]

I just wanna see this MiG brought to 2.0 and completely redone from scratch.. If they cant do it please let us know then i can uninstall. 

Maybe merge with another 3rd party dev team?

[freehand]

1 hour ago, Mainstay said:

I just wanna see this MiG brought to 2.0 and completely redone from scratch.. If they cant do it please let us know then i can uninstall. 

Maybe merge with another 3rd party dev team?

You do not need to know anything to uninstall just do it, only takes 2 mins to reinstall.

[artao]

3 hours ago, Mainstay said:

I just wanna see this MiG brought to 2.0 and completely redone from scratch.. If they cant do it please let us know then i can uninstall. 

Maybe merge with another 3rd party dev team?

I think if several of these small devs joined forces things would get done a LOT faster. So many tiny dev teams, not uncommonly with overlapping bits and parts each of them have to spend time individually developing. Unlikely to happen tho. It seems everyone wants to do their own thing.
I would pay a reasonable cost for a fix update for the current Balalaika while waiting to buy a new V2 .... some day. If only.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 8/18/2024 at 2:54 PM, Gunfreak said:

I'm glad Ma3 had the 21. Or at best we'd have a 21 that looks as terrible as the 23 and 25. Or no 21 at all.

I own the 21. But rarely fly it. So I mostly use it as an AI. Which is fine if you're in a 4th Gen aircraft. But gets decidedly less fun when you fly a 2nd or 3rd generation fighter and the AI overpreform something awful. Now this is partly an ED thing. But I think mag3 could have done something to the AI logic. While we quietly wait for that new general flight model ED showed 3 years, that apparently will fix all AI related problems.

 

ED handles all AI logic. That's in their court.

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

ED handles all AI logic. That's in their court.

But the AI handle based on what the aircraft stats are(or Spitfires would go Mach 2) 

There's obviously something wrong with the preformance of the 21. Which us Mag 3's responsibility to fix.

[Volator]

All AI aircraft overperform in DCS, that's not M3s fault. MiG-15 for example is by ED. AI aircraft behavior in DCS is not a good basis to discuss (over)performance.

[Gunfreak]

4 hours ago, Volator said:

All AI aircraft overperform in DCS, that's not M3s fault. MiG-15 for example is by ED. AI aircraft behavior in DCS is not a good basis to discuss (over)performance.

The MiG15 and MiG21 er the outliers. Most of the jets even if they somewhat over preform has been nerfed by the BFM AI that was added a few years back. It made stuff like MiG29, Su27, F18 behave more realistically based on their aircraft advantages (F18 preferring 1 circle vs F16 preferring 2 circle)  the MIG 15 and 21 did not appear to have been affected buy this update as their behaviour is same as it was before the BFM update. MIG21 is made by mag3, the MiG15 was made by a semi independent party thar now doesn't exist anymore. While all AI aircraft over preform. The 21 and 15 are in their own league using star trek impulse drive.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 8/21/2024 at 3:08 AM, Gunfreak said:

But the AI handle based on what the aircraft stats are(or Spitfires would go Mach 2) 

There's obviously something wrong with the preformance of the 21. Which us Mag 3's responsibility to fix.

The MiG-21 isn't the only aircraft to overperform as AI.

This has been brought up to Mag3 and the word from Hiromachi himself?

AI FM are ED's wheelhouse.

[PawlaczGMD]

4 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

The MiG-21 isn't the only aircraft to overperform as AI.

This has been brought up to Mag3 and the word from Hiromachi himself?

AI FM are ED's wheelhouse.

True - The 21 and F-5 are by far the worst offenders in how broken their AI FM is, and ED should have tuned them both a long time ago. People who make missions frequently resort to adding extra internal weight to these two to reign them in.

[Loukuins]

2 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

True - The 21 and F-5 are by far the worst offenders in how broken their AI FM is, and ED should have tuned them both a long time ago. People who make missions frequently resort to adding extra internal weight to these two to reign them in.

If only the AI FM was broken on the 21 lmao

[nessuno0505]

I really hope for a mig-21bis upgrade, something similar to the a-10c2 and ka-50iii, and I agree they have to prioritize it: maybe just after the f4d but surely before a ceii upgrade. Unfirtunately, since leatherneck split in HB and M3, the former developed f-14 and f-4 phantom, and the latter just the ceii, so I'm not so confident.

[artao]

Above I claimed the MiG-21bis can accelerate vertically.
I was wrong. Apologies.
Altho it can have a T:W of 1.0 to 1.1 in A/A combat configuration, its drag characteristics will prohibit vertical acceleration and actually cause the airspeed to reduce. Along with this, the engine's primary feed tank's fuel pump wouldn't like that at all, and would fail to keep up with the maneuver and cause fuel starvation and flame out of the engine.
Still, it can hold it's own for a short time in the vertical.
The fuel system tho is probably the aircraft's biggest fault, as it's too easy to fuel-starve the engine during high-G (+ or - but especially -), vertical, and inverted maneuvers. ........ That and the lag in changing thrust.

My bad.

Edited August 29 by artao

[ricktoberfest]

2 hours ago, artao said:

Above I claimed the MiG-21bis can accelerate vertically.
I was wrong. Apologies.
Altho it can have a T:W of 1.0 to 1.1 in A/A combat configuration, its drag characteristics will prohibit vertical acceleration and actually cause the airspeed to reduce. Along with this, the engine's primary feed tank's fuel pump wouldn't like that at all, and would fail to keep up with the maneuver and cause fuel starvation and flame out of the engine.
Still, it can hold it's own for a short time in the vertical.
The fuel system tho is probably the aircraft's biggest fault, as it's too easy to fuel-starve the engine during high-G (+ or - but especially -), vertical, and inverted maneuvers. ........ That and the lag in changing thrust.

My bad.

 

In addition, Don’t forget that the engine will output different amounts of power based on altitude and airspeed. A vertical climb starting at 200 knots is different than one that starts at 500 knots. Same for altitude. A climb starting at sea level will be different than one starting at 15000ft. 

[artao]

On 8/29/2024 at 12:07 PM, ricktoberfest said:

In addition, Don’t forget that the engine will output different amounts of power based on altitude and airspeed. A vertical climb starting at 200 knots is different than one that starts at 500 knots. Same for altitude. A climb starting at sea level will be different than one starting at 15000ft. 

Good point. You can't use 2nd stage burner above 6000m.

[Theodore42]

I can't help but to notice there are quite a few upvotes on these posts, especially for this forum.

The Phantom is a recently released module that's been really popular and the MiG-21 is the natural nemesis of the Phantom. There really needs to be a way for players to get into the MiG-21 to fight the Phantom.

I've got several modules that people call "trash" and "incomplete" or "out of date," and they're never as bad as they're portrayed. But in my experience the MiG-21 is the oldest, least updated, and the most deserving of a pedanticist's criticisms.

I'm absolutely willing to put up with a lot of small errors and missing features for the sake of 3rd party developers, but the two things that need updated for sure are the FM and the sound.

FM - too much turn rate at low speeds - needs to be fixed. I'm fine flying the MiG-21 like you're supposed to and that does evade the problems with the FM most of the time. BUT if you ever get into a rolling scissors with a Phantom you're gonna get a crazy advantage. I'd like to see a 21 with an updated FM do a rolling scissors with a Phantom to see if it is valid option or not.

Sound is archaic. Maybe it was even when it was released, which was forever ago.

Updating those two things I think would go a long way to making the MiG-21 a viable competitor to the Phantom.

Edited September 2 by Theodore42

[Ala13_ManOWar]

7 hours ago, Theodore42 said:

I can't help but to notice there are quite a few upvotes on these posts, especially for this forum.

The Phantom is a recently released module that's been really popular and the MiG-21 is the natural nemesis of the Phantom. There really needs to be a way for players to get into the MiG-21 to fight the Phantom.

I've got several modules that people call "trash" and "incomplete" or "out of date," and they're never as bad as they're portrayed. But in my experience the MiG-21 is the oldest, least updated, and the most deserving of a pedanticist's criticisms.

I'm absolutely willing to put up with a lot of small errors and missing features for the sake of 3rd party developers, but the two things that need updated for sure are the FM and the sound.

FM - too much turn rate at low speeds - needs to be fixed. I'm fine flying the MiG-21 like you're supposed to and that does evade the problems with the FM most of the time. BUT if you ever get into a rolling scissors with a Phantom you're gonna get a crazy advantage. I'd like to see a 21 with an updated FM do a rolling scissors with a Phantom to see if it is valid option or not.

Sound is archaic. Maybe it was even when it was released, which was forever ago.

Updating those two things I think would go a long way to making the MiG-21 a viable competitor to the Phantom.

 

Quite true, although I suspect it's not that easy when they're working on a quite complex new module which probably will help them get out of the problem of being a small team. If Corsair is a huge success they probably will be able to enlarge the team and dedicate more workforce to MiG-21 v2.0 and other future modules. That's luckily just a question of time until Corsair is ready to release. If they move to the MiG-21 instead... well I don't know what the outcome of that might be...

 

Anyhow, mates you're probably being a bit unfair here... comparing literally the last state of the art DCS module like F-4E is to the very first third party module ever released in DCS (remember, 2013-4 folks), isn't perhaps quite fair to be honest. And yet, even being 10 years old, it's a module used on a daily basis, with problems or not, and it still has it's appeal and still holds compared to other modules released later which aged even worse. To me that's quite an statement over the quality this module boasted back when first released. But yes, 10 years later it's in the need of an overhaul, no question about that. But let them work and finish their projects mates. A bit of the good old long lost  patience would be helpful here, wouldn't it?

[artao]

22 hours ago, Theodore42 said:

I can't help but to notice there are quite a few upvotes on these posts, especially for this forum.

Sound is archaic. Maybe it was even when it was released, which was forever ago.

Updating those two things I think would go a long way to making the MiG-21 a viable competitor to the Phantom.

I notice the positive response as well. Encouraging on that level, regarding user-interest.

The navigation is also in dire need of updating, so add that as a 3rd need along with FM and sound.

Regarding sound, someone HAS made a sound mod (2022) that IMO is pretty decent. It does go into the base directory, but is easy to turn into a mod -- I use JSGME. Also, it does pass IC (last I looked) >> https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3326441/

 

We'd need an earlier MiG-21 model and F-4 model. I don't think the F-4E ever went up agains the MiG-21bis. I may well be mistaken. Perhaps even likely.

I'm just being silly now tho. Close enough is close enough.

Edited September 3 by artao

[Volator]

7 hours ago, artao said:

I don't think the F-4E ever went up agains the MiG-21bis.

1980s Iran-Iraq maybe. It is a very plausible match nevertheless. In Cold War gone hot F-4E vs. MiG-21 bis would have been a thing.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 9/2/2024 at 4:35 AM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Quite true, although I suspect it's not that easy when they're working on a quite complex new module which probably will help them get out of the problem of being a small team. If Corsair is a huge success they probably will be able to enlarge the team and dedicate more workforce to MiG-21 v2.0 and other future modules. That's luckily just a question of time until Corsair is ready to release. If they move to the MiG-21 instead... well I don't know what the outcome of that might be...

 

Anyhow, mates you're probably being a bit unfair here... comparing literally the last state of the art DCS module like F-4E is to the very first third party module ever released in DCS (remember, 2013-4 folks), isn't perhaps quite fair to be honest. And yet, even being 10 years old, it's a module used on a daily basis, with problems or not, and it still has it's appeal and still holds compared to other modules released later which aged even worse. To me that's quite an statement over the quality this module boasted back when first released. But yes, 10 years later it's in the need of an overhaul, no question about that. But let them work and finish their projects mates. A bit of the good old long lost  patience would be helpful here, wouldn't it?

I'm guessing they really want to get the F4U out after the immense amount of time in dev it has taken. It's just yet another symptom of Mag3's most apparent shortcoming being resources and manpower. It has become acutely frustrating, but honestly? Not much we can do about it unless we have the qualifications needed to chip in.

Still, it'd be interesting to understand what the hold up has been with the Corsair since it's clearly in the way of a Fishbed update. I'd be very willing to part with money for a Fishbed update akin to A-10C II and Black Shark III. I just hope I won't be paying for it when I'm drawing from social security.
 

On 9/3/2024 at 2:32 AM, Volator said:

1980s Iran-Iraq maybe. It is a very plausible match nevertheless. In Cold War gone hot F-4E vs. MiG-21 bis would have been a thing.

The F-4E vs. MiG-21bis match up in a Cold War gone hot in Central Europe isn't just plausible, it would have been an inevitability.

Both of these airframes were no longer the primary air superiority platform for either side of the Iron Curtain, but definitely not out of their element. The fact that both are still hanging on in service today is testament to how fantastic they both weer. From the Fishbed's perspective, its small size, quickness, and availability would probably see it tasked hunting NATO ground attack aircraft. The A-10 would've been its quarry, for example. From the Phantom's perspective (US Phants, at least, Luftwaffe Phants would probably have an even wider mission set), its sheer power and flexibility would see it being a valued strike element and would probably have been used to kill Warsaw Pact divisional artillery formations, for starters, as well as supply depots, etc. while also being quite able to defend itself should it get bounced on by MiG-21s prowling for aircraft conducting that kind of mission.

Basically, while the F-15s and the like would be dominating high altitudes, the MiG-21s and F-4s would've been down lower, filling desperate calls for localized air defense and superiority, to strike, to close air support.

[303_Kermit]

On 8/17/2024 at 7:51 PM, Rudel_chw said:

 

I was defending? ... didn't realize it if I did .. I was merely attempting to expose a different opinion regarding the MiG-21, so that future readers of this thread do not get biased by it.

 

 

My nick is rudel_chw ... so, not the same.

 

 

I'm not a military pilot, so no access to such material ... but I do have gathered a few MiG-21 manuals here and there:

 

 

If you do have such access, it would be wonderful if you could share, as I love to study these aircraft

 

 

That's simply not true, perhaps you meant that you can't do "some" procedures.  Here is a longish video where I attempted to follow the full cold start procedure of the real MiG-21, and while there are most definitely some steps that can't be simulated, for the most part it can give a pretty detailed experience:

 

 

 

I know that on DCS no one would take 40 minutes to start a plane .. but I was curious about following the real aircraft procedure as closely as possible, and I used this time to explain most of the Systems of the MiG-21. It is remarkable how good the simulation is, that only a few steps couldn't be performed. Small accident at the end, sorry about that ... I've since removed the truck from the Mission.

 

 

Its been several years since the last time I flew the -21, and I don't have a video to rebate your point.

 

 

Well, that is certainly a bit rash ... most DCS modules have some aspects that are either not finished or buggy, but on my case I can still appreciate them in spite of their limitations.

 

 

OK, that's your opinion ... which I certainly do not share .. and as you placed a period on the subject, I will not argue further.

 

Eduardo

First :
are you using 2 profiles? One as Dev and one as one of us - poor suckers who bought semi-fidelity MiG-21bis?
 

Second:
You copied and pasted almost the same post as last year, shame on you. you post the same nonsense again and again:

Having realistic (is it?) startup procedure is 1% of what one may expect from Full Fidelity module. But even here are bollocks. Every MiG-21 (or any other jet pilot) will recognize it . During startup procedure EGT shows simple bollocks. thermodynamic of double shaft jet engine is characteristic. Behaviour of engine of MiG-21 isn't modelled in any way. it's War Thunder lvl. more throttle - more thrust. It's not DCS lvl of realism.

PS. In these training mission Magnitude mixed 2 procedures: preflight check & startup procedure. Those are very separate things in MiG-21.

3. SAU not working properly,
4. ARU not even in slightest way working properly,
5. Radar much to efficient at low altitude,
6. Strangely modeled elevator behavior at high altitudes (over 15 000m) pulling hard with ARU in manual mode set in position "Take off" (strangely it's also the same position in "Auto" mode on these altitude) gives slight, gentle turn with about 2G. 
7.If you pull 8,5 G crazy ARU may cause exceding G to over 10 and brake your... Wing tips (sic!) instead of bending your wing, but it's ok. You can fly (and land) MiG-21 without wings anyway. FM and DM is rubbish.
8.Other case is gyro sight - switch positions give different effect as expected: in pure Gyro mode only 300m range works as expected, auto ranging works different as expected (based on original flight instruction), A2G mode - shooting unguided rockets with rdr ranging and gyro gives also wind correction -> way too acurate, A2G bombing sight is a pure fantasy. It gives you precise hit point for FAB's with wind correction.
9.A ballistic table For manual bombing with various dive angles and sight deflection angles doesn't exist.
10.MiG-21 Cluster bombs are able to kill every server since I play DCS, Letherneck / Magnitude never attempted to correct these issues. 

Engine flames out after exceding 1300KIAS which is a total fantasy (and explanation given in DCS manual is made-up total fiction. It doesn't fit liquid mechanic, or jet engine behavior). Speed shall be limited by loosing longitudinal/directional stability and there is a proper description how it works in real MiG-21. And "the devs " are well aware about it. Modelling a proper behavior is too much effort i suppose? Engine flame out (due to over-speeding) is pure fiction (and a lie).

how it shall behave I posted here:

11. RSBN!!!
12.ARK!!!

Polish language is my native language so I had those opportunity to read and learn MiG-21 from it's original manual. Number of bollocks put into Magnitude made semi - fidelity module is revolting.

Except flight manual I possess Original Air Dogfight Training program for polish AF , 2 parts combat deployment manual and MiG-21R combat operation manual.

Even manual Magnitude made is rubbish...

Edited September 5 by 303_Kermit

[-Rudel-]

I assure you, that Rudel_chw, is not me.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

I'm waiting for someone to point out that this is Digital Combat Simulator. I got money riding on this! C'mon!

[Ala13_ManOWar]

3 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

I'm waiting for someone to point out that this is Digital Combat Simulator. I got money riding on this! C'mon!

yep, let's await for it