reported Air Boresight Issues

[Carbon715]

Ok so air start, caucuses. Mav is already boresighted due to air start, yes. Not the issue. Doing the boresight procedure should still render the mav boresighted to the tgp. If offset from a moving target after initial tms up, soi auto switches to mav (new?) TMS up with mav (this is in pre) and hitting boresight , then tms aft (1 sta of mav) should boresight however now there is an offset because the boresight target has moved from the original tms up of the tgp to the final location when mav boresight is hit and tms aft. If it doesn't make sense , Ill rephrase.  TLDR Boresight on moving air target not working

Air Boresight.trk

Edited September 6, 2024 by Carbon715
Tldr

[Lord Vader]

Hello @Carbon715

We've recently reviewed some logics of the EO weapons and that's what may be causing some confusion on your side.

The AGM-65 have have two important modes of operation: SLAVE - commanded by one of the sensors (TMS Up), moving the weapon LOS to the SPI and SLEW when the weapon is SOI and the seeker is not tracking a target (TMS Up again). In this last mode, the seeker LOS is being controlled by the cursor switch and LOS circle is displayed in the HUD/HMD and will not follow a moving SPI, like it does when in SLAVE mode. 

If you have any non-classified documented evidence this should work some other way, as always, send us that documentation via PM for our analysis. 

[Carbon715]

4 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

Hello @Carbon715

We've recently reviewed some logics of the EO weapons and that's what may be causing some confusion on your side.

The AGM-65 have have two important modes of operation: SLAVE - commanded by one of the sensors (TMS Up), moving the weapon LOS to the SPI and SLEW when the weapon is SOI and the seeker is not tracking a target (TMS Up again). In this last mode, the seeker LOS is being controlled by the cursor switch and LOS circle is displayed in the HUD/HMD and will not follow a moving SPI, like it does when in SLAVE mode. 

If you have any non-classified documented evidence this should work some other way, as always, send us that documentation via PM for our analysis. 

Ok, I'll rephrase as I don't think it's to do with the recent sighting changes but rather not being able to Boresight off of a moving target, for example, your wingman. In the track I did an air start, maverick is already boresighted to the TGP, which is fine. It is expected that boresighting the maverick again will retain a close enough Boresight depending on the distance boresighted, due to parallax. When doing the boresighting procedure in the air, which is the recommended avenue for botesighting mavericks, I go to A2G master mode, bring up my WPN page, and I cursor enable to PRE. Now with my TGP I command to SP mode, and TMS up as TMS right doesn't work for whatever reason. WPN page SOIs, so I DMS down to get back to TGP to slew to the wingman in front of me flying. I Tms up over/near the wingman to gain a point track. The TGP now follows the flying aircraft while automatically SOIing the WPN page. Ok great, if I am extremely quick I can TMS up again (since the mav is already boresighted) and lock the wingman with the mav. Now I hit BSGT OSB , TMS aft, and everything is peachy. Now do all that again right up to when the WPN page SOIs again. Simulating a non boresighted maverick we slew a second or so and back to that wingman. Hit BSGT, TMS aft and now the TGP and Maverick are not boresighted to that distance, but rather a distance much much further. What appears to be happening is with the TMS to point track from the TGP, a point we shall say is made at that position the aircraft is in. Now once we are sleeping the mav seeker over to the aircraft, that distance between point initial and point final is growing, because the target aircraft is flying. Once BSGT is hit and TMS aft applied you can see the difference between where the TGP is looking and the Mav do not coincide anymore. If the target aircraft was not moving, I don't think this issue would be happening, same as designating a target on the ground and botesighting off that. The air boresighting on something moving is the issue, if that helps.

Edited September 6, 2024 by Carbon715

[Lord Vader]

Wait, why are you trying to boresight and already boresighted sight and why are you doing it on a moving aerial target?

[Hobel]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Carbon715:

Ok so air start, caucuses. Mav is already boresighted due to air start, yes. Not the issue. Doing the boresight procedure should still render the mav boresighted to the tgp. If offset from a moving target after initial tms up, soi auto switches to mav (new?) TMS up with mav (this is in pre) and hitting boresight , then tms aft (1 sta of mav) should boresight however now there is an offset because the boresight target has moved from the original tms up of the tgp to the final location when mav boresight is hit and tms aft. If it doesn't make sense , Ill rephrase.  TLDR Boresight on moving air target not working

Air Boresight.trk 1.09 MB · 5 Downloads

 

 several processes interact with each other and influence each other, but I will only go into the BSGT here and show what is currently happening in DCS

 

Here is the same principle only in a very clean environment to make the behavior clear.

TGP has vehicle in point track Maverick lock too, I wait until the vehicle is stationary
both sensors are now  physically aligned with the vehicle and when i press BSGT this alignment should be saved, but as you can see this is not the case, it jumps back to the starting point and this causes the drift.

the same happens for you in the track @Carbon715

you can also see in my video how the TD BOX LOS/SPI  glitches back briefly and the system therefore thinks that this is the alignment point.

 

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Lord Vader:

 and why are you doing it on a moving aerial target?

The process is simple and clean and is also applied irl

SPI glitch .trk

Edited September 6, 2024 by Hobel

[Carbon715]

3 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

Wait, why are you trying to boresight and already boresighted sight and why are you doing it on a moving aerial target?

A. Because there is no option to have un boresighted mavs for the purpose of testing during air start. I don't have the time nor patience to cold start getting airborne and test something to see what's going on. B. Realistic boresighting target.

43 minutes ago, Hobel said:

 several processes interact with each other and influence each other, but I will only go into the BSGT here and show what is currently happening in DCS

 

Here is the same principle only in a very clean environment to make the behavior clear.

TGP has vehicle in point track Maverick lock too, I wait until the vehicle is stationary
both sensors are now  physically aligned with the vehicle and when i press BSGT this alignment should be saved, but as you can see this is not the case, it jumps back to the starting point and this causes the drift.

the same happens for you in the track @Carbon715

you can also see in my video how the TD BOX LOS/SPI  glitches back briefly and the system therefore thinks that this is the alignment point.

 

 

The process is simple and clean and is also applied irl

SPI glitch .trk 195.94 kB · 0 downloads

 

Exactly my point/issue

[Carbon715]

Very clever demonstration to show the issue as well

[Carbon715]

On 9/6/2024 at 9:02 AM, Lord Vader said:

Wait, why are you trying to boresight and already boresighted sight and why are you doing it on a moving aerial target?

Aerial Tgt for convenience and from what I understand realism but as Hobel demonstrated, a moving target in general won't allow a boresight. So should this be investigated?

[Lord Vader]

@Carbon715

Thanks for your clarifications. I've raised this internally for analysis. 

[Maverick Su-35S]

Hi,

            Whenever you use DTOS launching mode for a weapon and designate a point on the ground by using the HUD, then correcting the position on the ground through TGP, then switching back to CCRP launching mode, the steerpoints no longer work and all the SOIs remain stuck in a random plane on the ground which is not any kind of steerpoint.

Another bug is that the BRST function now makes the MAVs FOV run haywire, not listening to the slave mode anymore, nor in VIS or PRE, once you press BRST after locking a target on the ground. From that moment on, you can just dump the MAVs as they become useless and probably only after repairing the plane, that would fix the problem (just a guess) or simply respawn the plane. No matter how many times you try locking a target again (if you easily manage to) and pressing the BRST again just hoping to have it work normally again, it won't and remains with the selected MAV's seeker oriented sideways by default.

Steerpoints not working anymore when using DTOS and when pressing BRST on MAVs, their seeker goes haywire.trk

Regards!

[Hobel]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Maverick Su-35S:

Another bug is that the BRST function now makes the MAVs FOV run haywire, not listening to the slave mode anymore, nor in VIS or PRE, once you press BRST after locking a target on the ground. From that moment on, you can just dump the MAVs as they become useless and probably only after repairing the plane, that would fix the problem (just a guess) or simply respawn the plane. No matter how many times you try locking a target again (if you easily manage to) and pressing the BRST again just hoping to have it work normally again, it won't and remains with the selected MAV's seeker oriented sideways by default.

This aspect has already been reported 

There is an SPI glitch that messes everything up and can lead to what you are observing

 

 

I will take a closer look, but I have already observed similar strange behavior.

 

But it could be related to the SPI glitch, if that one is fixed, this here will also be affected 

Edited September 12, 2024 by Hobel

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged. 

thank you