Rockets....seriously?

[LastRifleRound]

I know it's been said before on here, but are HE rockets in real life as weak as they are in Black Shark? I've actually gotten really good at strafing and holding the pipper where i want it. I set up a training mission with 5 Ural 375s on road formation, lined up nice and tight, took 4 pods of S80's, selected all hardpoints, lined up perfectly, had the pipper motionles in the middle of the formation, set salvo to the highest setting, and let rip with a barrage I was sure would decimate the column, leaving 1 or 2 survivors.

 

I had them locked in the shkval, and watched as.....1 exploded. 1. I launch another salvo, and watch the rockets explode in and around all the targets, the smoke clears and....nothing. Not one. I was about 2.5 km out, and know i hit the area.

 

I flew the campaign mission "Escort" in the "Deployment" campaign.

 

 

 

 

 

*SPOILER*

 

 

 

 

When the column is ambushed, i am told to target the foliage. I whip around, aim at the foliage and unleash well-aimed bursts evenly throughout the foliage. I knock a troop or 2 out with the cannon, and the BTR's in the column handle everyone else. I look at the debrief and.....the rockets didn't kill anyone.

 

Now, i'm not too sure what the purpose of rockets are. I've been told they're like a "Shotgun" and that the ideal range to launch is between 3-2km out and i should be on egress after that, but i've got to tell you this just isn't effective and is a big waste of ammo.

 

Why take rockets? The cannon outranges them, is more accurate, and actually seems to have higher splash damage with the HE rounds than the rockets do. Surely this is a bug or unintended design consequence of some sort?

 

Finally, does the Russian army have MPSM-type rockets? Those would be neat to see in action

[Mad Dog 7.62]

I remember reading somewhere once that a American 2.75 in FFAR has about the same amount of explosive force as a 105mm howitzer shell. You certainly would think the 80mm Soviet rocket would pack at least that much punch.

MD

[fox_111]

I too feel the rockets are under powered.

 

I understand they won't destroy armored vehiculs. But I need close to direct hit to kill infantry in the open.

 

It look like they are simple flechettes rockets with no shrapnels.

[SUBS17]

IRL those rockets are extremely powerful for example in Afghanistan during the 80s a couple of hind gunships fired rockets into a Mujahedin base the resulting explosions were so powerful it buried one guy upside down with his feet in the air from the waist down. They are extemely destructive IRL and do alot of damage. I found in FC such rockets were quite undermodeled compared to how they should work.(haven't got BS yet but I am getting it soon:thumbup:)

[Peyoteros]

Well, if your mission is to destroy vehicles you should consider using S-13 which gives you far more bigger punch than S-8 which are good against infantry...

[LastRifleRound]

That's just the thing, the S8's AREN'T good against infantry. They're not good against anything. Anything less than a direct hit will not destroy whatever it is you're aiming at. This makes them quite a poor choice to use against infantry. 30mm HE is far superior, even vs. large groups in cover.

[element1108]

I usually fire the rocket salvo's into mountain ranges so nearby villagers can see some action...I personally don't have much luck with them in combat and find they're just added weight.

 

I for sure haven't mastered the rocket salvo in BS, FC's and fixed wings I find them easier to line up.

[HansRoaming]

I copied and modified the Shooting range missions so I could practice my gunnery and put some rockets in there. It almost seems I had to hit them directly with the rocket before they went down. Very strange.

 

Was the default mission loadout for Shooting range.

[Count Sessine]

Anti-armor rockets aren't supposed to be very good at killing infantry.

 

Apparently there is a blast fragmentation rocket being added to the arsenal in the upcoming patch:

 

NEW KA-50 WEAPONS

 

New unguided rockets have been added:

 

S-8OM - illumination rocket. Once fired, the rocket flies a ballistic trajectory. After 17 seconds, the warhead separates and releases a parachute-retarded illumination flare, which descends at a rate of 8.2 m/sec. The illumination flare burns for 35 seconds.

 

S-8OFP2 - blast-fragmentation rocket. Enhanced fragmentation effects and increased engine burn time. Used against infantry and unarmored targets.

[joey45]

CVR7s are much better then the US rockets...

[Made.In.China.00]

I think I've read somewhere in the forum that the blast damage is not modeled or not modeled well enough.

[TangoRomeo]

Guess ED knows about blast/frag radii issues, not only concerning unguided rockets. Although the ingame S8 variant being the KOM (HEAT) for use against armored vehicles, it should still have a fragmentation effect. Not as much as the M151 HEDP, but still, a near miss on soft skinned vehicles or troops should do. Especially against the latter, since they have no real cover.

[SUBS17]

Anti-armor rockets aren't supposed to be very good at killing infantry.

 

 

Yes they are IRL.

[LastRifleRound]

I should think a barrage of 32 of the suckers landing in and around a road formation of trucks should be enough to knock out 1 or 2 of them HEAT or blast frag.

 

However, I will say that you should employ rockets between 1-2km. Ideally 1.5-1.9 seems to be the "sweet spot". I tried my single mission again and employed rockets in this range to much better effect (Knocked out 4 of the trucks with one barrage). So basically, ignore the advice that says employ between 2-3km, you won't hit anything at that range.

 

I forgot they were introducing blast frag rockets in the patch. If they are as devastating as a 105mm shell that is going to be ALOT of fun :)

[Count Sessine]

Yes they are IRL.

 

Yeah, ok, I didn't exactly say it was healthy for infantry to get shot at with HEAT rockets :-)

 

But fair enough, it seems people agree there is a bug in the blast radii calculations. I stand corrected.

[EvilBivol-1]

I don't believe there is any bug.

 

What has been known for a long time is that the simulation does not model fragmentation effects, because it does not actually model individual fragments. Neither the weapons models nor the damage models can support this kind of detail (in case you're curious, ED did actually implement a fragmentation model as an experiment and the resulting explosions would choke the PC). However, the effects are approximated in the model to the degree possible with abstract damage range and point values. These things can always be tuned to a greater or lesser extent, but as far as I know ED does not feel the current model is incorrect.

IRL those rockets are extremely powerful for example in Afghanistan during the 80s a couple of hind gunships fired rockets into a Mujaheddin base the resulting explosions were so powerful it buried one guy upside down with his feet in the air from the waist down. They are extremely destructive IRL and do a lot of damage.

Sound like a "story." In Afghanistan, the Soviets still used the S-5 rockets, which were found to be highly ineffective. In fact, there are other "stories" about the Mujaheddin surviving such rockets attacks because the fragments would fail to penetrate their robes. The S-5 rockets were gradually replaced with the S-8s, which are considered much more effective, but we would still need to work with some kind of numbers in order to make a comparison with Black Shark. In other words, you have to define "effective" and "deadly."

 

P.S. Just remembered that there is actually a bug with the S-13 rockets in Black Shark. The in-game S-13 is tuned to simulate a penetrating warhead instead of the blast-frag it is supposed to be.

Edited May 26, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[LastRifleRound]

I see what you're saying here, but in application, something is wrong. That amount of firepower should level a column of trucks.

 

I think a simple radial damage model would suffice here, no need to model fragments.

 

They must have come up with some sort of workaround, as they are introducing blast/frag rockets in the patch.

[SUBS17]

I don't believe there is any bug.

 

What has been known for a long time is that the simulation does not model fragmentation effects, because it does not actually model individual fragments. Neither the weapons models nor the damage models can support this kind of detail (in case you're curious, ED did actually implement a fragmentation model as an experiment and the resulting explosions would choke the PC). However, the effects are approximated in the model to the degree possible with abstract damage range and point values. These things can always be tuned to a greater or lesser extent, but as far as I know ED does not feel the current model is incorrect.

Sound like a "story." In Afghanistan, the Soviets still used the S-5 rockets, which were found to be highly ineffective. In fact, there are other "stories" about the Mujaheddin surviving such rockets attacks because the fragments would fail to penetrate their robes. The S-5 rockets were gradually replaced with the S-8s, which are considered much more effective, but we would still need to work with some kind of numbers in order to make a comparison with Black Shark. In other words, you have to define "effective" and "deadly."

 

P.S. Just remembered that there is actually a bug with the S-13 rockets in Black Shark. The in-game S-13 is tuned to simulate a penetrating warhead instead of the blast/HE it is supposed to be.

 

Not just Afghanistan but also Sierra Leone the Hinds use those rockets very effectively. The solution is to model a blast radius and anything inside that radius is destroyed. The only exception is fortifications or troops being dug in then you would have a 50% kill rate inside the radius for example or you could shrink the radius of the blast so it takes that into account.

[EvilBivol-1]

The current model is already based on blast radius calculations. The damage effects are based on the warhead size (blast radius), object life points and impact proximity.

Edited May 25, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[LastRifleRound]

ahhh i think i see what you're saying. The fragments are what ordinarily would be scoring the kills, but since there are no fragments, there are no kills.

 

What, then, are we to use the current S8's for? Point blank they can really tear up columns, but other than that i'm having a hard time finding a use for them

[arneh]

In Afghanistan, the Soviets still used the S-5 rockets, which were found to be highly ineffective.

 

 

The Soviets began using S-8 rockets on Hinds in Afghanistan from early 1983 onward (you did say that the S-8 began to replace the S-5, though you made it appear this happend after Afghanistan, while it actually happened during).

 

Some interesting rocket experience from Afghanistan. Though it doesn't mention which warhead was used, so possibly something more suited for infantry.

In April 1983 a convoy of 180 trucks escorted by a tank battalion was ambushed. [...] When the Mi-24s arrived on the scene [...] The choppers released a salvo 80 mm S-8 FFARs' date=' making the first operational use of this weapon; the men on the ground mistook them for cannon fire of tremendous density and power. [...']

 

The S-8 rockets earned the highest praise in Afghanistan. The 3.6 kg warhead had considerable demolition effect and produced lots of 3 g fragments, with a lethal radius of 10-12 m. The new rockets began supplanting the S-5; yet the earlier model stayed in use all the way until the Soviet pullout from Afghanistan.

(my emphasis)

Edited May 25, 2009 by arneh

[EvilBivol-1]

ahhh i think i see what you're saying. The fragments are what ordinarily would be scoring the kills, but since there are no fragments, there are no kills.

Fragmentation effects are simulated. Meaning, although there are no individual fragments flying around, the damage modeling tries to simulate the effect by calculating a "damage radius" around the impact point.

 

You should use them in the same way they are used in real life - as area weapons against soft-skinned targets. They are not designed to be effective against pin-point targets, such as a vehicle. But if you have a swath of vehicles or a concentration of troops, you are likely to score a kill against something in there.

Edited May 25, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[EvilBivol-1]

The Soviets began using S-8 rockets on Hinds in Afghanistan from early 1983 onward (you did say that the S-8 began to replace the S-5, though you made it appear this happend after Afghanistan, while it actually happened during).

Yes, you are right. I meant to say that the S-5s were eventually taken out of service and no longer used by the Russian military today. The S-8 does have a good reputation as an effective weapon. The modernized S-8 model introduced in 1.0.1 will be more effective against infantry.

[MBot]

Fragmentation effects are simulated. Meaning, although there are no individual fragments flying around, the damage modeling tries to simulate the effect by calculating a "damage radius" around the impact point.

 

 

Has this already been present in FC or was that a new development for Black Shark. Because in FC I always had the impression that fragmentation effects were very weak, especially regarding "self-fraging". Former fighter pilot Andy Bush's rule of thumb for avoiding bomb fragmentation (I guess for the Mk-84) is 3000ft lateral separation, 3000ft vertical separation or 30 seconds separation. This gives a good indication of how far and long fragments will fly. Of course one should be aware that this doesn't mean you actually WILL be hit within those limits, just that you CAN be hit.

 

 

A point that should be worth to consider when discussing rocket effects against infantry in game. What you see is actually a simplification, a simple model of the complex reality. Real terrain can be rugged and provide cover, real infantry will drop down and take shelter. Even if you see a single man standing on a large plain in Black Shark, this is actually the games simplified display of a intelligent infantryman taking cover in complex terrain. As such the damage models of our simple infantry might take such thoughts into account and be more resistant.

[EvilBivol-1]

Has this already been present in FC or was that a new development for Black Shark. Because in FC I always had the impression that fragmentation effects were very weak, especially regarding "self-fraging". Former fighter pilot Andy Bush's rule of thumb for avoiding bomb fragmentation (I guess for the Mk-84) is 3000ft lateral separation, 3000ft vertical separation or 30 seconds separation. This gives a good indication of how far and long fragments will fly. Of course one should be aware that this doesn't mean you actually WILL be hit within those limits, just that you CAN be hit.

That's a good point. I don't know the intricacies of the code, but it gets complicated if you begin to talk about different types of weapons interacting with different types of objects. For example, I believe ED adjusts (increase) the warhead size values for A-A and S-A missiles in order to approximate the frag effects against aircraft. I don't think this is done for A-S munitions and this is why there is no self-fragging. However, I think the ground unit damage modeling is itself designed to account for frag damage, albeit in the simple form of warhead size and impact proximity vs. armor thickness and unit life bar. Vehicles will often take partial damage that is not visible to the player, but which affects their aiming accuracy.

 

In other words, although individual fragments are not modeled, ED attempts to adjust the code so that a unit will take on damage within an average range you would expect it to take on damage from the munition in question. The details making this happen are coded numerical values and they are not always perfectly balanced. However, in the case of the S-8KOM as currently implemented in Black Shark, I don't think ED plans on making any adjustments as they feel it is simulated properly given the limits of the simulation. As already pointed out above, it's also worth remembering that the S-8KOM is a HEAT warhead and has a low blast/frag effect. The S-8M (OFP2) version added in the patch is a blast/frag warhead and will be more effective against infantry. Don't expect it to do wonders though, it's still just an unguided rocket. The current S-8KOM (HEAT) warhead will probably still be the selection of choice against armored vehicles.

Edited May 26, 2009 by EvilBivol-1