Rudder effectiveness at taxi speeds

[Reflected]

I just saw this video and it reminded me of something. With the exception of the Spitfire I can't make any of the other warbirds turn on the ground or stop turning by using the rudder only, without differential braking.

When I taxi the Spit, and add a burst of throttle, say 1500 RPM, the rudder can initiate a turn or stop one. In combination with the brakes it's a nice experience.

In the P-51, P-47, 109, there is absolutely no point touching the rudder, the only thing that can make them turn are the differential brakes. Stopping a turn requires so much braking that the plane just stops (if I taxi at the recommended speeds)

I wonder why it is so?

Please please don't turn this into a generic 'taildraggers' thread, and yes I know about tailwheel locking mechanisms. Don't hijack the thread with those. It's about why the Spit's rudder has some (little ) effect, and why others don't at all.

 

Edited October 24, 2024 by Reflected

[vgilsoler]

In the I16 the tail wheel is linked to the rudder. So if you move the rudder pedals, you will move both the rudder and the tailwheel. I don’t know if it is the same case or similar for the spitfire. 

[Reflected]

5 hours ago, Reflected said:

 

Please please don't turn this into a generic 'taildraggers' thread, and yes I know about tailwheel locking mechanisms. 

 

thanks

[Slippa]

Personally, I’m pretty sure this stems from the update that implemented the wonderous new ‘suspension’.

It completely buggered the Mossies ground handling which thankfully, after almost a year, was finally repaired and is now much more sensible.

The Jug and Pony were buggered when they rolled it out to those too but the Jug wasn’t affected as badly as the Pony was. I agree, the rudder on the Jug lost any authority it had on taxi speeds and using the brakes to line it up seems the only way now.

The Pony suffers most for me. It’s been a sorry joke since the ‘updated suspension’. I can live with it on landing or take off but ground handling’s another matter. I’ve got a lot better with it but only because I’ve adapted over time to it. A tiny dab on the toebrakes will easily lift the tailwheel and it can nose-over and foul the prop. I see people struggle on the ground that can fly perfectly well once in the air in it.

I only hope the Spitfire’s left well alone. It’s fine as it is, maybe a little stiff but not enough for any dodgy suspension rollouts thanks.(ED)

I don’t fly the 190s much but they still seem ok. The 109’s still fine so far as I can tell and I don’t own the I-16 so wouldn’t know.

PITA bobbing about on the ground trying to turn the Pony now though. Maybe they’ll tone it down a little? I’ve read some people like it since they updated it so horses for courses? I’ve never seen one behave like ours does on the deck in the real world though. On grass or a hard strip.

[Reflected]

25 minutes ago, Slippa said:

Personally, I’m pretty sure this stems from the update that implemented the wonderous new ‘suspension’.

It completely buggered the Mossies ground handling which thankfully, after almost a year, was finally repaired and is now much more sensible.

The Jug and Pony were buggered when they rolled it out to those too but the Jug wasn’t affected as badly as the Pony was. I agree, the rudder on the Jug lost any authority it had on taxi speeds and using the brakes to line it up seems the only way now.

The Pony suffers most for me. It’s been a sorry joke since the ‘updated suspension’. I can live with it on landing or take off but ground handling’s another matter. I’ve got a lot better with it but only because I’ve adapted over time to it. A tiny dab on the toebrakes will easily lift the tailwheel and it can nose-over and foul the prop. I see people struggle on the ground that can fly perfectly well once in the air in it.

I only hope the Spitfire’s left well alone. It’s fine as it is, maybe a little stiff but not enough for any dodgy suspension rollouts thanks.(ED)

I don’t fly the 190s much but they still seem ok. The 109’s still fine so far as I can tell and I don’t own the I-16 so wouldn’t know.

PITA bobbing about on the ground trying to turn the Pony now though. Maybe they’ll tone it down a little? I’ve read some people like it since they updated it so horses for courses? I’ve never seen one behave like ours does on the deck in the real world though. On grass or a hard strip.

Ok, so I'm not just imagining things...

[motoadve]

In game P51 ground modelling is weird now, rest seem fine IMHO.

I suspect in the videos they are using a bit of braking to help turning? There no way to make this kind of turns in the tailwheel plane I fly without touching the brakes. 

[Reflected]

27 minutes ago, motoadve said:

In game P51 ground modelling is weird now, rest seem fine IMHO.

I suspect in the videos they are using a bit of braking to help turning? There no way to make this kind of turns in the tailwheel plane I fly without touching the brakes. 

I'm not expecting not to touch the brakes, I know how taildraggers work. What I'm saying is that the US Warbirds' rudder has absolute zero effectiveness at taxi speeds right now.

[motoadve]

4 minutes ago, Reflected said:

I'm not expecting not to touch the brakes, I know how taildraggers work. What I'm saying is that the US Warbirds' rudder has absolute zero effectiveness at taxi speeds right now.

P47 with the tailwheel unlocked do not seems to be a problem, the P51 ground modelling is really broken now, its terrible.

[Art-J]

2 hours ago, Slippa said:

Personally, I’m pretty sure this stems from the update that implemented the wonderous new ‘suspension’.

Nah, I'm pretty sure it doesn't :). It's been like that since 2014 when I started flying warbirds in DCS, Mustang was the only one available plus Dora and Kurfy were coming. It was the first thing that caught my attention back then (when I couldn't even taxi to runway properly). It has also been a subject of countless "realism" debates ever since, both on this and other sims forums.

Relatively Ineffective rudder from propwash alone is just a "thing" in ED-physics code and that's that. Yo-Yo has been programming it that way for more than a decade so I wouldn't expect any changes. One simply gets used to it, in a similar fashion to various FM peculiarities in different flight sims.

Recent landing gear changes haven't affected rudder behaviour either from what I can tell.

[PawlaczGMD]

Reflected is right. It has nothing to do with tailwheel locking or new suspension mechanics. 

The Spitfire stands out with an effective rudder at low speeds, and it has no tailwheel control.

It was like this since forever. Realistic or not? Not sure, but hard to see a good reason for such a large difference.