Helicopters: FFB cyclic force trim + axis saturation bugged

[Havner]

This is for helis, tested Apache, Hind and Hip, so I presume it's bugged across the board.

1. Use FFB stick
2. Set saturation on the pitch/roll axis, e.g Saturation Y to 66%.
3. Use force trim

When releasing the trim button the stick moves away from the set position ~33% closer to the center that it was released with.
Makes using FFB force trim impossible with some saturation set.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Havner

[MAXsenna]

33 minutes ago, Havner said:

This is for helis, tested Apache, Hind and Hip, so I presume it's bugged across the board.

1. Use FFB stick
2. Set saturation on the pitch/roll axis, e.g Saturation Y to 66%.
3. Use force trim

When releasing the trim button the stick moves away from the set position ~33% closer to the center that it was released with.
Makes using FFB force trim impossible with some saturation set.

 

Not a bug. You can't use curves or saturation with FFB sticks.
How would your FFB stick know that you have changed the virtual length of your stick? That's what saturation does. 33+66=~100

Edited October 29, 2024 by MAXsenna

[Havner]

3 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Not a bug. You can't use curves or saturation with FFB sticks.
How would your FFB stick know that you have changed the virtual length of your stick? That's what saturation does. 33+66=~100

 

The FFB doesn't need to know that. The game needs to send a rescaled center for the FFB spring effect center. And the game has this is info as it has both, the saturation and the "virtual" force trim center. There is nothing that stop DCS to implement this.

So if you have a saturation of 50%, the force trim center at:
physical: (100, 100)
logical: (50, 50)

DCS now sends (50, 50) as the FFB center (hence the stick moves to the center). It needs to send a physical stick location (100, 100). Simple as that.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Havner

[MAXsenna]

The FFB doesn't need to know that. The game needs to send a rescaled center for the FFB spring effect center. And the game has this is info as it has both, the saturation and the "virtual" force trim center. There is nothing that stop DCS to implement this.

So if you have a saturation of 50%, the force trim center at:
physical: (100, 100)
logical: (50, 50)
DCS now sends (50, 50) as the FFB center (hence the stick moves to the center). It needs to send a physical stick location (100, 100). Simple as that.

Well, it's not a bug. Call it well known limitation if you wish. I really don't care as it's a known fact. It is what it is. Make a wish, or the Rhino has super software. Can't you just tune it there?

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[Havner]

8 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Well, it's not a bug. Call it well known limitation if you wish. I really don't care as it's a known fact. It is what it is. Make a wish, or the Rhino has super software. Can't you just tune it there?

Sorry, you can call it what you wish. A missing feature, a bug, a known limitation. Something doesn't work as expected and can be fixed. Doesn't matter. There is no section on the forums to report "known limitations". For all intents and purposes here it's a bug. Also why would I care that you don't care? This is a bug report forum. This post was not meant for you, but for the devs.

Also this post is not about what I can do with it. I can workaround it in Rhino software, but it doesn't make the bug any less of a bug. Moza users probably won't have an option to workaround it.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

For FFB use 0 deadzone 0 curve 0 saturation. This is not a problem at all usually, but I understand the desire to lower saturation values when it comes to the Apache: that thing is very very twitchy at the moment but hopefully that will be rectified with future FM updates, as the real thing is supposed to be very stable to fly.

[MAXsenna]

For FFB use 0 deadzone 0 curve 0 saturation. This is not a problem at all usually, but I understand the desire to lower saturation values when it comes to the Apache: that thing is very very twitchy at the moment but hopefully that will be rectified with future FM updates, as the real thing is supposed to be very stable to fly.

Get an extension!

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[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

45 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Get an extension!

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Actually I have a 20cm S-curve extension I bought for my “old” CM2 base, but I’m not using it with the Rhino. I changed my entire setup so I no longer have to swap between fixed and rotary wing setups, as I use the Rhino for both.

I found Virpil’s 10cm Z-extension (combined with a throw limiter for the Rhino) to be the best compromise which puts the grip exactly where I want it and at the angle I want it at. It works brilliantly, except for the Apache: it’s perfectly fine during regular flight but while trimming it’s far too nervous - for now.

Edited October 31, 2024 by Raven (Elysian Angel)

[MAXsenna]

Actually I have a 20cm S-curve extension I bought for my “old” CM2 base, but I’m not using it with the Rhino. I changed my entire setup so I no longer have to swap between fixed and rotary wing setups, as I use the Rhino for both.
I found Virpil’s 10cm Z-extension (combined with a throw limiter for the Rhino) to be the best compromise which puts the grip exactly where I want it and at the angle I want it at. It works brilliantly, except for the Apache: it’s perfectly fine during regular flight but while trimming it’s far too nervous - for now.

Right!
I see what you mean took it for a spin. For some reason i find the Apache one if the simple ones, while it is a little squirrelly as you say. When in a hovee it's like it lost weight or something.

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