F14 is not so competitive to su27

[Ddg1500]

Just got blowed up by su27 in a Chinese severer twice, those su27 are really agile and capable, I think su27 is actually better than f14.

su27 locks on target much faster than f14, and su27 got a actually better missile

[Pillowcat]

[Viper33]

10 minutes ago, Pillowcat said:

lol

[Despayre]

I wouldn't be overly surprised to find out that something built 10 years later, has some improvements over the older plane. 

However, given that, I'll stick with the Tomcat... turns out, it's not the plane, it's the pilot.

Edited October 30, 2024 by Despayre

[diego999]

You have active radar missiles. He doesn't.

If you go into a merge with a Tomcat against a Su-27, you're doing it wrong.

[scommander2]

Can we compare Su-27 and F-14 side-by-side?  F-14 is mainly for the intercept... 

[Ddg1500]

15分钟前，scommander2说：

Can we compare Su-27 and F-14 side-by-side?  F-14 is mainly for the intercept... 

f14 can’t turn exactly well at high speed compare with su27, and I would risk ripping the wings off when pulled too hard, su27 is a much better dogfighted than f14

[RustBelt]

6 hours ago, Ddg1500 said:

f14 can’t turn exactly well at high speed compare with su27, and I would risk ripping the wings off when pulled too hard, su27 is a much better dogfighted than f14

That’s because the Su has magic computers that keep you from ripping the wings off, while the Tomcat uses the Pilot’s skill to not rip the wings off.

A significantly newer aircraft will in fact be better, that’s how arms races work. 

[scommander2]

13 hours ago, RustBelt said:

while the Tomcat uses the Pilot’s skill to not rip the wings off

Indeed...  Tomcat is capable to do lots of things and it is really up to its pilots according to GS (if I got the message correctly). 

Edited October 31, 2024 by scommander2

[Karon]

On 10/30/2024 at 3:36 PM, Ddg1500 said:

Just got blowed up by su27 in a Chinese severer twice, those su27 are really agile and capable, I think su27 is actually better than f14.

su27 locks on target much faster than f14, and su27 got a actually better missile

I am not sure whether this is a troll post or not. I suppose it is, since you are comparing FC3 magic aircraft with a full-fidelity, excellent module. On top of that, the F-14 we have still sports the '60s combination of AWG-9 and AIM-54, so of course, it should have more issues in this department. Still, a decent RIO greatly offset this, giving the advantage to the F-14.

So, do you want to play this somewhat realistically? Then, you should use AIM-54C and AIM-7M versus R-27. Especially with the F-14A, you are much faster than the Su-27, so keep the speed up and blow-through if necessary.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 10/30/2024 at 4:36 PM, Ddg1500 said:

su27 locks on target much faster than f14

Well yes of course it does: you can't really compare FC3 simplified systems to a full fidelity module.

[The_Tau]

No offence but i would not fire phoenix at anything more distance than 15 nm from 25k feet. Personally if i want to hit anything BVR wise (in F14 more than 15nm) i would climb to at least 40k,

In F14 Alt beats speed to use 54 in BVR. And in closer ranges vs su27, just fox 3 at 15nm and go cold, bandit has to go cold or he will die. 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

23 minutes ago, The_Tau said:

No offence but i would not fire phoenix at anything more distance than 15 nm from 25k feet. Personally if i want to hit anything BVR wise (in F14 more than 15nm) i would climb to at least 40k,

In F14 Alt beats speed to use 54 in BVR. And in closer ranges vs su27, just fox 3 at 15nm and go cold, bandit has to go cold or he will die. 

No offence taken, I can try your way too. I have to admit it is for my fun, as normally, the bandit does not have SRM only. Thanks.

[draconus]

On 11/2/2024 at 11:28 AM, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Well yes of course it does: you can't really compare FC3 simplified systems to a full fidelity module.

You can compare radar (and lock) ranges though and Su-27 shouldn't come up on top at all, so I suspect OP is still learning what is what and how to use the radar.

[The_Tau]

18 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

No offence taken, I can try your way too. I have to admit it is for my fun, as normally, the bandit does not have SRM only. Thanks.

AIM 54 is thin air missile. You are not using AIM120, you have to learn completely differently the optimal employment, similar to how to use AIM7 on F-4E with its Pulse only radar. Except to radar limitations you also add very sensitive optimal firing parameters, and then on top of those two, optimal target selection. Not everything can be shot at 50nm away. For some things you have to change tactics and close in for ACM shot (ACM shots in F14 are everything below 15 nm )

Edited November 4, 2024 by The_Tau

[Karon]

I mean, it's not that no one has ever talked about the actual in-game missile performance ever, eh...

Missile kinematics I/II: https://flyandwire.com/2023/06/09/missiles-kinematics-part-i-time-factor-and-loft/

Missile kinematics III: https://flyandwire.com/2023/07/27/missiles-kinematics-part-ii-cold-war-era/

Video about the "best" Phoenix variant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9V_A1gjiKE

DCS missile performance visualised: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urL9PKusXho

And there's a lot more, Google helps.

[bies]

Just two things to add:

F-14 is full fidelity module and it has various real life limitations modeled in DCS. Su-27 is low fidelity simplified module and it's real life limitations aren't modeled, it's a big advantage in itself as this 1980s Su-27S avionics was full of restrictions; radar needed some time to lock, it had tracking limits during maneuvering, it had lower detection ranges in "independant mode" without GCI steering the antenna from the ground, it wasn't that reliable at low altitude look down, many functions were not as automatic as they are in FC3 Su-27, datalink was easy to jam, has limited number of doners, IRST was described as nearly useless in tactical air combat, but good enough and usefull for high alt interceptions and it was very weather dependant etc. All of that would be modeled in full fidelity Su-27S some day.

Second thing is F-14 was carrier based, it required heavier undercarriage, hook, more corrosion resistant skin, whole lot of low speed lift etc. Naval Su-33 has significantly worse kinematic performance than Su-27.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1 hour ago, bies said:

 All of that would be modeled in full fidelity Su-27S some day.

 

Insert wistful sigh here.

[G.J.S]

On 10/30/2024 at 3:36 PM, Ddg1500 said:

Just got blowed up by su27 in a Chinese severer twice, those su27 are really agile and capable, I think su27 is actually better than f14.

su27 locks on target much faster than f14, and su27 got a actually better missile

You’re fighting his fight, not yours. Use the F-14’s strengths to capitalise on your opponent’s shortcomings.

Where the F-14 could be inferior to your opponent is territory you should avoid if at all possible.

 

Always fight YOUR fight - not his . . .

[Ramius007]

Biggest flamingclifization of DCS Flanker are r-27t missiles, procedure to fire those is a bit more complicated and missiles themselves were not that loved by RL pilots as they are by DCS pilots, but still FC3 Flanker is not great plane by any means, DL is usefull, but Su-27 is slower than it should be, much closer to F-15C in RL than it is in DCS, radar is significantly worse, even than FC3 F-15, and aim-7>r-27r. FC3 auto IFF help, but to much lesser extent than big Tomcat radar, Flanker have to count on AWACS/EWR to build SA, so that auto IFF in BVR is less impactfull than many belive, also IRST not give IFF obviously. As mentioned, boat based planes have uphill strugle in dogfights in general, they have few extra tons of junk that ground based fighters dont have. 

[Revor]

The Su-27 in DCS and in real life has a helmet mounted sight and you can fire your Archer IR missiles high off boresight in a dogfight. The F-14 has only Aim-9Ms and no helmet sight, so in a dogfight the Su-27 has a huge advantage.  In the BVR environment the F-14 is much better than the su 27 because of the active radar homing Fox 3 Phoenix missiles.  The Su-27 in DCS has only fox1 missiles. So in BVR the F-14 has a huge advantage. If you use BVR tactics to fight a su-27 , you will win in a F-14 in DCS. In a dogfight with an Su-27 pilot , who knows his plane and systems, you are often dead before you completed the first turn, because of the helmet mounted sight and high off boresight missiles of the Su27

[okopanja]

10 hours ago, bies said:

Just two things to add:

F-14 is full fidelity module and it has various real life limitations modeled in DCS. Su-27 is low fidelity simplified module and it's real life limitations aren't modeled, it's a big advantage in itself as this 1980s Su-27S avionics was full of restrictions; radar needed some time to lock, it had tracking limits during maneuvering, it had lower detection ranges in "independant mode" without GCI steering the antenna from the ground, it wasn't that reliable at low altitude look down, many functions were not as automatic as they are in FC3 Su-27, datalink was easy to jam, has limited number of doners, IRST was described as nearly useless in tactical air combat, but good enough and usefull for high alt interceptions and it was very weather dependant etc. All of that would be modeled in full fidelity Su-27S some day.

Second thing is F-14 was carrier based, it required heavier undercarriage, hook, more corrosion resistant skin, whole lot of low speed lift etc. Naval Su-33 has significantly worse kinematic performance than Su-27.

Can you tell us more about those limitations IRL(e.g. what is stated IRL manual) vs DCS limitations?

[RustBelt]

And in DCS the Archers actually fire and work. As opposed to real life where their coolant was huffed by the ground crew a month prior.