VPForce Rhino Vs. MOZA AB9

[Screenchecker]

Hi everyone,

I hope this is the right forum for my question. Sorry for the super long post, but I wanted to let you guys in detail what my current situation is.

Since I mostly enjoy FFB in DCS with Warbirds (and occasionally MSFS, though I’m still waiting for proper native support and not just telemetry), I figured I’d find the most useful information from FFB enthusiasts here. If you know of another forum where I could find a lot of people with experience with various FFB sticks, please let me know! Maybe someone already did an in-depth review by comparing both untis side by side and I just couldn't find it.

So here’s the dilemma: I’ve been using the MOZA AB9 since October, and overall, I’m very happy with it. It was my first step into flying with FFB and I never want to go back. One known drawback is that the software is still lacking in some areas and sometimes you have to wait on things to be fixed, but the've made pretty decent progress since release and the community on the discord is really nice with direct contact to the dev lead. For me personally I did not run into a lot of problems that ruined the overall expierence.

It's mounted on an MTSIM MONSTERTECH center mount, and I’m very happy how well everythings fits, as the AB9 fits perfectly in front of the chair with my current combination of brackets.

This week I received a notification from VPForce that my Rhino will soon be ready. Including VAT a new mounting plate, and replacement parts for extensions, this is going to set me back at least €1,200. So, the cost of upgrading to the Rhino would be roughly €800 if I sold the MOZA AB9 for €400.

But the FOMO is strong here, as it’s not like you can just buy a Rhino off the shelf. Even though there’s some waiting time for the MOZA base as well, it’s not comparable to the 5+ months you wait for a Rhino.

Here’s my set of questions:

1. Which unit has better hardware?
   I know there’s no way of telling how long the MOZA base will last, but it feels rigid and well-built. However, is it better or worse in build quality compared to the Rhino? Are there any known problems with the Rhino since it's been out there for much longer? I read about an overheating issue, but not sure how often you'd run into that.

2. Mounting concerns:
   The Rhino base is a bit larger than the compact form factor of the MOZA base. Will there even be a comfortable way to mount the Rhino base on a center mount with a non-simpit gaming chair (Secret Labs Omega 2020)?

3. Software comparison:
   Based on my research, VPForce Rhino software is considered the best FFB software available for home use. But how far behind is the MOZA base’s software in terms of functionality and features?

4. Force feedback feel:
   How different does the Rhino feel in terms of force feedback compared to the MOZA? Is it in a whole different league, or are they technically very similar with only minor details that distinguish them?

I’m especially hoping to hear from people who have used or owned both bases for an extended period of time.

I’ve already found a few posts where people tried to compare the two bases (sometimes even pre-release), but those are too speculative for me to make an informed decision. If you can answer some of these questions, I would really appreciate it if you could also share a brief explanation of how you came to your conclusions (so if you've personally tried both or just one or none). It's also perfectly fine if you can't base your opinion on actual comparing both bases in real life and it's just you personal opinion or what you would do in the same situation.

I would like to know how much of a difference in experience the Rhino would actually bring and if it's worth 800 € extra cost.

Edited December 15, 2024 by Screenchecker

[MAXsenna]

If I had have the Rhino coming, it would be an easy choice!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Shortcut]

I'll bet a hole lot of people would like to find out.

[crispy12]

Check out this video, he shows detailed photos of the software including the types of settings available between each of the included presets by Moza. 

There are settings for flight model as well as module effects, such as adjusting the force of weapon release, countermeasure release, gun release etc in addition to flight model effects like stall buffeting and helicopter VRS.

So far my very brief experience and ownership of the AB9, there are plenty of settings to fiddle with. My main concern is the quality of the hat switches and buttons on the Moza MH16 stick is not as good / well built as the Virpil CM2 that I am using. There is no hat depress on the DMS and Trim hat although the hat switch can be physically depressed - Moza say they are not planning on including or fixing this. However the build quality of the base, overall packaging is very professional and seems fitting of a typical product from Moza (by no means cheap, in sim racing world Moza are considered middle-class hardware and relatively budget friendly/affordable with good quality).

 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Sorry for the late reply. I don't have experience with both so I'll limit my contribution to this thread to stuff I do have experience with.

On 12/15/2024 at 2:10 PM, Screenchecker said:

I read about an overheating issue, but not sure how often you'd run into that.

Personally, I never had that happen at all. Sure the fan can kick in from time to time, but that's still not overheating - it's the overheating *protection*. When the stick does overheat it reduces all forces by 50% but you can continue to fly - and forces will go back to 100% of what you set them at as soon as the unit is cooled down sufficiently.
It highly depends on the settings you use in the software and which module you fly. The most taxing use case I found is dogfighting in the FC3 Su-27: that thing has very high stick forces and no way to tune them down (as far as I am aware).
But it is very obvious when the fan kicks in (it's LOUD) so that's a clear sign you should take things easy for a while.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I have both, you can check my video on the Moza AB9 Base and my Rhino order is #0888 (interesting number to some).

I have had my AB9 since September (time flies ay?) and I can tell you I do not get it from the UK, I am not sponsroed, and that's it.

I ordered the Rhino back in mid-November (crazy dude, I know) and it landed on my front door in early February, so less than 120 days, it is more like 90 days  -- it involved the usual story of FedEx incompetence and the damage of Brexit to daily life in the UK.

Cough, before I go on, I say earlier I am not comparing these 2 bases, I love them both.

Nonetheless, here I am.

Moza AB9 base, as many who follow this base, know it is a fully enclosed in a metal case, no moving parts exposed. Also the connector to the stick is metal, and the power plug into the base is a flat pin with a clutch which makes it hard to disconnect accidentally.

Note that both do not have any visual indication that the stick is powered on or not. For AB9, you may find the stick is on when it  remains stiff upright. For Rhino, you can say there are 2 stages of the base being "up", if the USB to it is connected, the base shows up on the Control Panel but the buttons on the stick work. However, the axis does not work and of course there is no force feedback, even if the power is connected. One needs to turn it on, which gives out a nice beep sound, in order to have the full function of the base. Well, this is not a downside and it is how it is.

Note that if you spend a little more, you can buy a restrictor which limits the Y-axis of Rhino to 11 degrees each, which I do have it. Note that you have to install the limiter yourself but it is a not hard to do as long as you have the matching screw head.

The Rhino software comes in 2 parts, one is general gaming and sensing the telemetry and the other is the control the various aspects of force feedback. The latter one is very complete and gives you total customisation most of the aspects of feedback. If you are just a regular guy who does not want to touch those overwhelming confusing details, one can stick with the general gaming application. Once nice thing you get is auto profile switching and it supports even third-party modules like OH-6A for DCS, though I have no idea if it is realistic or not but damn sure I enjoy the heck out of it.

It should note that  the Rhino software is not without bugs (aka all software do have bugs) and there is limitation as well. As any FFB base users can tell you, you should not mess with the axis curves inside the game, but with the base software. I asked and there is no such stick input curve to change with, only the force responses. Say, I do not like I can pull too much so I wish to limit it but there is no way I can do it directly.

Also, FYI, the DCS F-16C profile/preset from the Rhino base does not act like the actual side stick of the F-16C (MFSSB or FSSB or whatever), but the Moza preset does. However, I am told that the author of the F-16 preset on Moza thinks it could have been better.

I have some strange issues with Rhino base hardware myself, it is in the process of resolving with the builder and I do not want to elaborate it any further.

If you have any questions on either of the base, please feel free to ask and I would try my best to answer.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Oh, should have answered the question, without comparison:

On 12/15/2024 at 1:10 PM, Screenchecker said:

Which unit has better hardware?

It is of personal choice. As I mention above, AB9 is a fully enclosed metal base with no external moving parts. All the controls and the connectors are in the front of the base, expect the part connecting to the stick, of which is also made of metal. It uses USB-B connector and a flat power connector with a clutch on it.

As for the Rhino, both co-axial power connector and the USB-B connector is in the front, fan on the left and on the top, there is a knob for adjusting power level and one big red button to start/stop the force feedback. To turn on, one need to turn the knob and push it down to stop. Both are quite close together, it may cause a tiny problem when starting it when I am in VR for turning on the base may also changes to knob together. Or it is just me.

Both do not have any lights to indicate their status, but Rhino does beep when startup, disconnect or the setting has been changed.

Note that AB9 has ports to connect with its own throttle and pedal units.

While, using Rhino parts, people can build their own FFB throttle, collective and rudder pedals.

On 12/15/2024 at 1:10 PM, Screenchecker said:

Mounting concerns:

Rhino is a tiny bit taller, but the base area is smaller. I find the Moza base is heavier, nonetheless, I can still mount it sideways using regular universal desk mounts without problem. Since it does not vibrate that much -- there are still vibrations at times, mind you. So far so good. BTW, my Rhino base sits on the floor with a used chopping board to hold it in place.

On 12/15/2024 at 1:10 PM, Screenchecker said:

Software comparison:

Apart from my pervious, Rhino software is very powerful, though not complete, and it may not be the most eye-pleasing UI out there. 

On 12/15/2024 at 1:10 PM, Screenchecker said:

Force feedback feel

I am not fan of exercising my wrist and shoulder when flying, both are of the rating of 9NM. With the right profile, the feeling of both is quite fine and I have no way to know how close  the profiles representing the real thing. From personal experience, after flying a 30-something minute mission with AB-9 using F-16 profile, both my wrist and shoulder ache afterwards, as I have been pulling the "pole" too hard and it barely moves.

Note that Rhino can adjust the force amount using either hardware or software. And its profile for F-16C comes with the base does not make it a pole, but rather just  move like any other planes. One can change the profile if needed. 

Edited March 4 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[rafalg78]

Please check out my post if you are interested in FFB and VP Force Rhino.