Buncha questions

[Huckle]

Hi, have searched on all of these, but nothing seems to come up.

 

1. Is there a guide to how to do the funnel manouevre anywhere? I know it's not a tactically wise thing to be doing, but would still like to know.

 

2. The Russian movie that features the Black Shark? Is it worth getting, or even available? This is the one I'm thinking of:

BTW, any particular books worth looking over? Even on the ones that feature attack helicopters, Ka-50 is rarely mentioned.

 

3. How many Vikhrs should it take to sink a cargo ship? I fired 11 into one, and it just kept going... :mad:

[joey45]

2. think Russian airwolf....

 

3. no idea cos the Vikhr is anti-tank not anti-ship

[EtherealN]

On number 3, I think DCS uses a bit of the old hitpoint style stuff, so it should be theoretically possible, but you should not expect it to happen really. You are talking about attacking a several-thousand-tonnes cargo ship with weapons that carry (if memory serves) only some 8-10 kilogrammes of explosive. Compare to the Maverick which has versions between 57kg and 140kg (numbers not reliable - taken from wikipedia) and is still anti-tank, and ASM's like the Harpoon (221kg), Exocet (165kg) and RBS-15 (200kg). Though obviously, warhead weight isn't the only thing that's relevant, explosive type and so on matters a lot, but the Vikhr is orders of magnitude below weapons actually meant to engage ships.

[Panzertard]

1. Funnel manouvre as in Barrel Roll? If so - yes, almost kinda, looks ugly - but possible. Requires training - high speed, low collective, a bit altitude and diapers in your flightsuit.

Much fun there :)

[EtherealN]

Panzer, Funnel is when you circle the target in such a way as to always have it in front of your nose (that is, weapons pointed his way).

[Chizzy101]

There's a couple of vids on youtube of people flying the funnel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt1_5W6SO6o and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVMc8yZH9K0.

 

My understanding is that you fly with a lot of side slip and pitch the nose down, keeping you weapons on the target in front of you. The side slip helps make you a hard target for small arms fire, but allows you to fire continuously. I haven't found it much use as I think it's better to range the target and hit it from afar, but it gets a 9/10 for the cool factor.

 

Apparently this move isn't as effective in a conventional tail rotor helo, as they can't side slip as quickly. Not sure if that's the case though, someone here will know more about it than me.

 

Edit: EtherealN beat me to it!

[Panzertard]

okai, cheers Eth & Chiz :)

 

Do it all the time, just didnt know it had a name :)

Quite effective again small arms / static AAA (in this sim).

Tend to use it if Im engaged by AAA hidden in forests - and which Im not able to properly target - instead a lay down a barrage of rockets / 30mm HE by using Funnel :)

Dodged quite a few small arms, manpads, ZU-23's etc this way.

 

If you discover the target before it can fire at you engage it outside its maximum range of course - hence no funnel :)

[EtherealN]

Aye, I've found it to (sometimes) be a very effective aggressive-defensive technique against MANPADs and AAA that has slipped under the radar, as it were. I don't really do full funnels, but the basics of the technique are nice if you are surprised but find yourself in cannon range of the threat - then you can lay a barrage (using HMS only, no lock) at the target while still making yourself difficult to take down.

 

Not something for prolonged use though - then it is obviously better to try to get out and get a proper safe shot.

[ericinexile]

Funnel.

 

Practice on a fixed point, let's say a tree. get close, get low. Apply cyclic, let's say left. Apply right rudder to keep your nose on the point. You will also need to apply nose down cyclic once centrifugal forces begin. use collective to maintain height. If nose tracks left with full right rudder you are either:

 

1-going left because you are applying too much cyclic, or

2-going left because the radius of your circle is too large.

 

This maneuver has NO practical application. But it looks cool and is lots of fun with practice.

[Huckle]

Thanks for that!

 

Will do some study tonight... pity about the ships, I carefully put several Vikhrs at the waterline too. :doh:

[Ali Fish]

details on the funnell maneuver can be found in the printed black shark manual.

 

the funnell is performed at a speed between 100 and 180 km/h with a negative pitch angle between 30 and 35 degrees. this maneuver is in fact a sideslip turnin which the pitch and banking angles trade places. when the funnell is performed, the rotor thrust is near parallel to the horizonatal plane and is directed to the centre of the notional cone. the forces of inertia are balanced while the helicopter rotates along the near-circular trajectory at a sideslip andgle of 90%. Thus, the funnel is based on the ability of the coaxial-rotor to perform an extended sideslip and lateral movement at a high speed.

 

chapter 5-10

[EtherealN]

Thanks for that!

 

Will do some study tonight... pity about the ships, I carefully put several Vikhrs at the waterline too. :doh:

 

Yeah, but remember that with a weapon like that you would probably not do much more than flood a few compartments - which are likely to be watertight.

 

Taking an example from a sea sim (albeit not quite as detailed) like Silent Hunter 4, the cannon which is actually meant to take out cargo ships still require quite a few rounds to sink the target (less to immobilize, obviously), and specifically getting hits in on both sides help there. I don't know exactly how detailed and realistic that part of SH4 is though.

 

But generally speaking, they'll have watertight bulkheads and you would therefore need a LOT of Vikhrs to sink a cargo ship in a realistic fasion.

 

Bring some Kh's instead. :P

[Arclight]

SH isn't realistic in that fashion. Normally it takes something like 20 shells to sink a ship (game uses HP system). There are mods though that change this; sometimes you can fire over 120 rounds without much to show for it. IRL it certainly could take 100 rounds to finish of a crippled ship that had already been struck by a torpedo.

 

Long story short, ships don't sink easy. Lobbing a few ATGMs at them isn't going to do much (giving it's a decent sized ship).

[Huckle]

Cool, thanks for the manual page, hadn't come across that section yet.

 

In regard to the ship sinking, that's most likely correct, although I imagine you could make a real mess of the cockpit. Still, at least it's not the hitpoint model of CFS3, where repeated mg passes would eventually sink the Bismarck.

[Ali Fish]

what i really wants to see is a how to regards a flat turn attack. Surprised there isnt to much info on that in the manual.