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The T-50 (PAK-FA) Thread


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Did you guys notice there's no dorsal airbrake...

 

It brakes with the ailerons, like the F-22 does. I think the missing dorsal airbrake reduces weight and gives the plane more stability in flight while braking. I also think that it remains stealthier than when retracting the huge dorsal brake, which can reflect the radar-beam back to the enemy.


Edited by Endoplasmic Reticulum

I used to love her, but I had to kill her



I had to put her, six feet under

And I can still hear her complain

 

A tribute to BBetty and NNadja

:bye_3:

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ALL CREDITS OF THIS POST GO TO radicaldude1234

 

Im just posting it here, becuase it was interesting

sourece: http://www.freefalcon.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17216

 

 

Hey guys, I'm taking a class on aerodynamics at the college that I'm at and I thought I'd take a shot at analyzing this thing. Now, there will be no doubt that there are some who are arguing that I should be deving or something, but since this helps me study anyways, I'll give this a go.

 

Now, I'm no aerospace engineer (mechanical), so the more engineers who jump in and correct anything that I say the better.

 

Basically I'm going to gather the general characteristics of the thing like lift coefficients, drag, cruise speed, manueverability, etc...

 

I'm going to base my numbers off of this 3 view from the Russian site Paralay, which looks pretty accurate

 

3view.jpg

 

Based on the image and info, here are the preliminary dimensions

 

Length: 21m (68.8ft)

Span: 15.14m (49.66ft)

Height: 5.023m (16.48ft)

 

Empty Weight (wiki): 18,500kg (40785lb)

Loaded Weight: 26,000kg (57,320lb)

Max TO weight: 37,000kg (81,570lb)

 

Thrust: 2x 175KN Engines (38,500 lbf each)

Total Thrust: 350KN (77,000 lbf)

 

Wing

Root Chord: 6.81m

Tip Chord: 1.64m

Leading Edge Sweep: 46.94 deg

Trailing Edge Weep: -10.21 deg

Aerodynamic Sweep (the sweep that matters): 24.24 deg

Wing Area (Wings Only): 35.37m^2 (380.6ft^2)

Wing Area (Wings and fuselage area between wings: 35.37m^2 + 46.34m^2 = 81.71m^2 (879.07ft^2)

 

Aerodynamic Observations from Planform:

Max Shock Cone (Supersonic Shockwave) angle: 26.93 degrees from centerline

 

Since the shockwave cannot touch any part of the structure, we can find maximum mach by:

 

Max Mach = 1/sin(max shockwave angle) = 1/sin(26.93) = 2.208 mach

 

All these were extrapolated from this drawing (note: divide distances by .42 to get meters)

 

 

AeroGeo.jpg

 

Next post, I'll try and do some hand calculations of Lift and Drag, then put the planform through a CFD analysis and see how it goes!

 

.

.

.

There are certain ways to measure reflection, scatter and the like, but it is currently out of my league at this point. That, and even if I did find out, some things are best left unsaid on the internet, if you know what I mean.

 

Some other observations as I am trying to get the wing characteristics simulated in the meantime:

 

CGMAC.jpg

 

 

The center of gravity, which can be extrapolated from the landing gear location, is surprisingly forward. The redline represents the probable CG location. The green line represents the calculated mean aerodynamic chord, or MAC. Center of gravity is usually located along a percentage of this line; around 25-30% for stable civil aircraft and 40-50% for FBW aircraft.

 

Now, we know the CG can't go any backwards because the airplane will tip back and stay there on landing if that were so. So the Red line represents the furthest rear the CG can be. Since the location is in fact FORWARD of the MAC leading edge, this leads me to conclude that the clearly defined "wing" does not provide the large majority of the total lift.

 

In this way, the aerodynamics of the T-50 differ from the F-22. Based the F-22's landing gear, the Raptor's CG is more typical of a conventional design and the CG is at ~35-40% of the MAC. With the T-50, since the CG is so forward on the conventional wing, my hypothesis is that the areas that look like strakes and the area between the engines generate significant lift and should be treated more as part of the wing. Also, the layout seems to have more lifting body characteristics than the norm for both Western and Eastern fighters. Given the layout of the Su-27 family, with its widely spaced engines and generously large strakes, it does make sense that Sukhoi would continue in this direction, though.


Edited by A.S

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ALL CREDITS OF THIS POST GO TO radicaldude1234

 

Im just posting it here, becuase it was interesting

sourece: http://www.freefalcon.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17216

 

 

Hey guys, I'm taking a class on aerodynamics at the college that I'm at and I thought I'd take a shot at analyzing this thing. Now, there will be no doubt that there are some who are arguing that I should be deving or something, but since this helps me study anyways, I'll give this a go.

 

Now, I'm no aerospace engineer (mechanical), so the more engineers who jump in and correct anything that I say the better.

 

Basically I'm going to gather the general characteristics of the thing like lift coefficients, drag, cruise speed, manueverability, etc...

 

I'm going to base my numbers off of this 3 view from the Russian site Paralay, which looks pretty accurate

 

3view.jpg

 

Based on the image and info, here are the preliminary dimensions

 

Length: 21m (68.8ft)

Span: 15.14m (49.66ft)

Height: 5.023m (16.48ft)

 

Empty Weight (wiki): 18,500kg (40785lb)

Loaded Weight: 26,000kg (57,320lb)

Max TO weight: 37,000kg (81,570lb)

 

Thrust: 2x 175KN Engines (38,500 lbf each)

Total Thrust: 350KN (77,000 lbf)

 

Wing

Root Chord: 6.81m

Tip Chord: 1.64m

Leading Edge Sweep: 46.94 deg

Trailing Edge Weep: -10.21 deg

Aerodynamic Sweep (the sweep that matters): 24.24 deg

Wing Area (Wings Only): 35.37m^2 (380.6ft^2)

Wing Area (Wings and fuselage area between wings: 35.37m^2 + 46.34m^2 = 81.71m^2 (879.07ft^2)

 

Aerodynamic Observations from Planform:

Max Shock Cone (Supersonic Shockwave) angle: 26.93 degrees from centerline

 

Since the shockwave cannot touch any part of the structure, we can find maximum mach by:

 

Max Mach = 1/sin(max shockwave angle) = 1/sin(26.93) = 2.208 mach

 

All these were extrapolated from this drawing (note: divide distances by .42 to get meters)

 

 

AeroGeo.jpg

 

Next post, I'll try and do some hand calculations of Lift and Drag, then put the planform through a CFD analysis and see how it goes!

 

.

.

.

There are certain ways to measure reflection, scatter and the like, but it is currently out of my league at this point. That, and even if I did find out, some things are best left unsaid on the internet, if you know what I mean.

 

Some other observations as I am trying to get the wing characteristics simulated in the meantime:

 

CGMAC.jpg

 

 

The center of gravity, which can be extrapolated from the landing gear location, is surprisingly forward. The redline represents the probable CG location. The green line represents the calculated mean aerodynamic chord, or MAC. Center of gravity is usually located along a percentage of this line; around 25-30% for stable civil aircraft and 40-50% for FBW aircraft.

 

Now, we know the CG can't go any backwards because the airplane will tip back and stay there on landing if that were so. So the Red line represents the furthest rear the CG can be. Since the location is in fact FORWARD of the MAC leading edge, this leads me to conclude that the clearly defined "wing" does not provide the large majority of the total lift.

 

In this way, the aerodynamics of the T-50 differ from the F-22. Based the F-22's landing gear, the Raptor's CG is more typical of a conventional design and the CG is at ~35-40% of the MAC. With the T-50, since the CG is so forward on the conventional wing, my hypothesis is that the areas that look like strakes and the area between the engines generate significant lift and should be treated more as part of the wing. Also, the layout seems to have more lifting body characteristics than the norm for both Western and Eastern fighters. Given the layout of the Su-27 family, with its widely spaced engines and generously large strakes, it does make sense that Sukhoi would continue in this direction, though.

 

Keep the math going, thanks for posting your studies, looks like the that the pack-fa has more wing area than both raptor and yf-23, that means less wing loading right?

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Maybe it is marketing trick or really is lighter. I slightly vote for that it is really lighter.

Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D

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OTOH, the design characteristics for it were also strict, it's basically an STOL given the 400m runway requirement. That surprises me more than the stupid talk about the 'lateral bays' and how the compressor would be visible (on paralay it was proven that it is visible for 1/6th, shold it lack any ramps).

It may be 20 years behind the YF-22, but I don't think stealth was their main criterea, I'm guessing a de-centralised air warfare structure may be the future for Russia (akin to the highway runways in Sweden). But that is only speculation based on take-off and landing requirements.

Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy:

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ALL CREDITS OF THIS POST GO TO radicaldude1234

 

Im just posting it here, becuase it was interesting

sourece: http://www.freefalcon.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17216

 

 

Hey guys, I'm taking a class on aerodynamics at the college that I'm at and I thought I'd take a shot at analyzing this thing. Now, there will be no doubt that there are some who are arguing that I should be deving or something, but since this helps me study anyways, I'll give this a go.

 

Now, I'm no aerospace engineer (mechanical), so the more engineers who jump in and correct anything that I say the better.

 

Basically I'm going to gather the general characteristics of the thing like lift coefficients, drag, cruise speed, manueverability, etc...

 

I'm going to base my numbers off of this 3 view from the Russian site Paralay, which looks pretty accurate

 

3view.jpg

 

Based on the image and info, here are the preliminary dimensions

 

Length: 21m (68.8ft)

Span: 15.14m (49.66ft)

Height: 5.023m (16.48ft)

 

Empty Weight (wiki): 18,500kg (40785lb)

Loaded Weight: 26,000kg (57,320lb)

Max TO weight: 37,000kg (81,570lb)

 

Thrust: 2x 175KN Engines (38,500 lbf each)

Total Thrust: 350KN (77,000 lbf)

 

Wing

Root Chord: 6.81m

Tip Chord: 1.64m

Leading Edge Sweep: 46.94 deg

Trailing Edge Weep: -10.21 deg

Aerodynamic Sweep (the sweep that matters): 24.24 deg

Wing Area (Wings Only): 35.37m^2 (380.6ft^2)

Wing Area (Wings and fuselage area between wings: 35.37m^2 + 46.34m^2 = 81.71m^2 (879.07ft^2)

 

Aerodynamic Observations from Planform:

Max Shock Cone (Supersonic Shockwave) angle: 26.93 degrees from centerline

 

Since the shockwave cannot touch any part of the structure, we can find maximum mach by:

 

Max Mach = 1/sin(max shockwave angle) = 1/sin(26.93) = 2.208 mach

 

All these were extrapolated from this drawing (note: divide distances by .42 to get meters)

 

 

AeroGeo.jpg

 

Next post, I'll try and do some hand calculations of Lift and Drag, then put the planform through a CFD analysis and see how it goes!

 

.

.

.

There are certain ways to measure reflection, scatter and the like, but it is currently out of my league at this point. That, and even if I did find out, some things are best left unsaid on the internet, if you know what I mean.

 

Some other observations as I am trying to get the wing characteristics simulated in the meantime:

 

CGMAC.jpg

 

 

The center of gravity, which can be extrapolated from the landing gear location, is surprisingly forward. The redline represents the probable CG location. The green line represents the calculated mean aerodynamic chord, or MAC. Center of gravity is usually located along a percentage of this line; around 25-30% for stable civil aircraft and 40-50% for FBW aircraft.

 

Now, we know the CG can't go any backwards because the airplane will tip back and stay there on landing if that were so. So the Red line represents the furthest rear the CG can be. Since the location is in fact FORWARD of the MAC leading edge, this leads me to conclude that the clearly defined "wing" does not provide the large majority of the total lift.

 

In this way, the aerodynamics of the T-50 differ from the F-22. Based the F-22's landing gear, the Raptor's CG is more typical of a conventional design and the CG is at ~35-40% of the MAC. With the T-50, since the CG is so forward on the conventional wing, my hypothesis is that the areas that look like strakes and the area between the engines generate significant lift and should be treated more as part of the wing. Also, the layout seems to have more lifting body characteristics than the norm for both Western and Eastern fighters. Given the layout of the Su-27 family, with its widely spaced engines and generously large strakes, it does make sense that Sukhoi would continue in this direction, though.

 

Interesting analysis but bear in mind that max speed is as much determined by engine duct configuration as the external shape of the airframe. Does Pak Fa have shockwave ramps in the intake ducts?

 

If not the plane is not expected to exceed mach 2, even though theoreticaly the engine could do better.

 

NOTE: this is a technicality since average speed in a closed course is much more important than top speed that can only be maintained very briefly on previous gen aircraft.

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In fact, while it unmistakenly is inspired by some US stealth designs, the aircraft also seems a logical evolution of the Flanker. A kind of "Silent Flanker" with canted fins and a more elaborate wing/body/lerx blend.

 

I could also imagine a more conservative evolution of the current Flanker design where they try to put some conformal housing at the wing root or between the engines to store some payload, and canted fins, like the F-15 Silent Eagle proposal.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Are they going for the LPI Radar concept with the PAK-FA ?

 

Unknwown. The radar is still in development.

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

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Are they going for the LPI Radar concept with the PAK-FA ?

 

What is LPI radar?

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Ram g.skill f4-3200c16d 32gb

Evga rtx 2070

Ssd samgung 960 evo m.2 500gb

 

Syria, Nevada, Persian Gulf, Normandy 1944

Combined Arms

A-10C, Mirage-2000C, F-16C, FC3

Spitfire LF Mk. IX

UH-1H, Gazelle

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Low Probability of Intercept. I means your TEWS wont pick it up.

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

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Low Probability of Intercept. I means your TEWS wont pick it up.

 

Thank for info..:thumbup:

Asus Prime Z-370-A

Intel core I7-8700K 3.70Ghz

Ram g.skill f4-3200c16d 32gb

Evga rtx 2070

Ssd samgung 960 evo m.2 500gb

 

Syria, Nevada, Persian Gulf, Normandy 1944

Combined Arms

A-10C, Mirage-2000C, F-16C, FC3

Spitfire LF Mk. IX

UH-1H, Gazelle

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Me wonders how T-50 and F-22 perform under EMP impulses ...(nuke save)

The russians are known to built "ray-save" jets .....maybe it be nuke-based or other weapons..... ...so here comes the question: ..which one is easier to "grill" :D

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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With the amount of electronics and t/x elements on both aircraft, they'll both be well done in about 5 sec at HI power :D

 

Me wonders how T-50 and F-22 perform under EMP impulses ...(nuke save)

The russians are known to built "ray-save" jets .....maybe it be nuke-based or other weapons..... ...so here comes the question: ..which one is easier to "grill" :D

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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yeah..i guess so....but i really wonder about the elec-independence (backup-ability) ...i know the 22ski can make good barbeque itself...but does it have barbeque gloves ? :D

 

HA...found a good read on that one:

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1996/apjemp.htm

 

I don't think we'll see EMP weapons aimed directly at aircrafts etc. in the near future. AFAIK the "warhead" is still quite big.

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