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Free Track support after patch


LoBiSoMeM

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I guess yes I heard NP wanted to protect their files by SF.

 

Anyway I also guess there will be people who make correct fix soon ;)

Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D

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Or maybe ED can use the Free Track SDK and other API supported solutions for 6DOF.

 

Isn't FreeTrack software based on NP software?

 

If no I am suprised why it is not in Black Shark yet. NP monopoly?

Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D

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Please no discussion about NP's/FreeTrack's product and marketing policy.

 

Thanks.

 

A webcam can provide a good way to track IR leds and the CPU can use the image to stream data to 6DOF view control. No big deal about the calcutation of 3 points in space image.

 

I never understand why don't exist a lot of cheap head tracking options... Wiimote uses IR leds and tracking... what's the big deal about IR tracking hardware and PC games? We can't discuss the cheaper options?

 

Never undestand all the "mist" over this subject... Free Track is open-source. Can one company (like ED) use the software (or other) without the patented output? The calculation for head tracking is based in math, not patented yeat...

 

Will we someday have the option of this kind of software and regular hardware for head tracking?


Edited by LoBiSoMeM
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your paying for a product that has a better framerate then a webcam. not the software. The product costs money to build so the company needs to make a profit on what is being built and they a relegated on how much profit they can make by whoever the relegaters are.

The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance.

"Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.."

https://ko-fi.com/joey45

 

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your paying for a product that has a better framerate then a webcam. not the software. The product costs money to build so the company needs to make a profit on what is being built and they a relegated on how much profit they can make by whoever the relegaters are.

 

I'm not begginin a discussion about TrackIR prices. I'm not paying for any product like this. I like to use my webcam to generate the video stream for head tracking.

 

I'm using a free software, open-source, one IR gadget I made, and one Microsoft webcam.

 

This free software, open-source, can be used to generate a lot of output data formats. This output is availabe for any software company to use. As I said, the calculation of this data are made by know and free available math (http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/cache/papers/cs/26154/ftp:zSzzSzpublications.ai.mit.eduzSzai-publicationszSzpdfzSzAIM-1378.pdf/alter92pose.pdf).

 

I really don't need more framerates. 30 FPS are OK for DCS:BS head tracking. If I need more, I can buy one dedicated IR camera, like Wiimote, or another product. That's not the point.

 

Why I can use OpenOffice to edit my texts, using all the export formats, but have so much "issues" using Free Track? I like my low 30FPS webcam...

 

My deal is with Eagle Dynamics, not other company. I have a legit consumer question... I'll like to use my webcam and an open source software to generate my head tracking data. ED software can use the raw data outputed by this software? I can see one "FreeTrack Interface" and a lot of raw data below this ugly skull... I'm talking about ED software and my hardware. And I'm talking now about open source interface, not a company one...

 

We can discuss this? I can't see any legal problem. I think it's an ED customer legit point of concern. If not, I will like, as consumer, to read clearly in one document after buying other DCS series title:

 

"This is an "Enhanced" game, and you will never be able to use your cheap head tracking solution, or even discuss the subject!"

 

Can we talk about other IR head tracking solutions? :thumbup:


Edited by LoBiSoMeM
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Will we need to install another "fix"?

 

I'm really worried, because I love DCS:BS but hate Natural Point... :music_whistling:

This is the original question. I think I dont understand, maybe others are suffering from the same problem as I ... ;)

 

1. I have to ask what you mean by "install another fix"?

Do you have to install a fix today?

If you expect for it to be included in DCS:BS 1.0.1 - is that "fix" already official?

If it's not offical - have someone suggested it being included with DCS:BS 1.0.1?

Then Boberro stated

I guess yes I heard NP wanted to protect their files by SF
Does it mean the files are NaturalPoints property - and cannot be included (without their permission)?

 

 

2. And then the next statement - "you hate NaturalPoint" - what does this have to do with the question? And why bother "hating a company"? Just stay away from them ... simple as that. (I suspect you're trying to make a point that you hate them, and so should more people - altough I dont see the point of "hating" a company).

 

Still - if there some kind of "do it yourself" for this freetrack to work, you can always request someone to make an official update and ask ED to include it. :)

 

But the whole tone and underlying statements in this whole thread is a bit weird ... just saying. ;)

The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it's open | The important thing is not to stop questioning

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do you hate NP because they sell high quality hardware and ,in your eyes, over priced head track equipment?

 

or do you just not like them in general?

The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance.

"Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.."

https://ko-fi.com/joey45

 

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My "hate" reason...

 

I'm a little bit tired to have the hardware and software necessary to generate the head tracking data and are IMPOSED to use one monopoly company "solution" to have the same features in a game, sim, etc.

 

That's why I hate the cited company. My "hate" are not the subject now of the topic. Please, don't mislead the discussion... That's not the question, let's move on...

 

But what I really, but really hate, is the simple and not discussed fact: FreeTrack HAVE an avalable SDK, and HAVE the available raw data to any company use. For free, no legal issues.

 

This subject never is discussed with the proper manner... It's 2009, we all have potent hardware and potential solutions for a - now - simple technology: IR head tracking.

 

Why we can't buy a $10 dollars 3 point clip and use a simples software? I have a multicore cpu, no more need to "no CPU usage" talking...

 

We dont need to use any paid head tracking API to do this. We can use one, no problem, but we don't NEED. Why people can't discuss this?

 

And yes, I have to install a "fix", and you know what "fix" it is. I'll like if ED can use the FreeTrack open-source interface and data. I'll like if this feature are included as a real FIX in the next patch.

 

I'm making a suggestion to ED, to use the AVAILABLE FreeTrack SDK and Interface too.

 

Nothing "underlying" in my posts. Read them all. I'll not enter another "close the topic" discussion leaded by some head tracking devices customers, thanks!


Edited by LoBiSoMeM
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Ah, it clears it up a bit. Yes, even though reference in a couple of posts - the "hate" reference has nothing to do with this thread. :)

 

Maybe you could reference which "fix" you need to install?

Maybe make a list on what to do - and clear enough for ED to include it in a future patch?

And a full ist of requirements - so its easier for them to pick up on what you mean?

 

I mean, if you do a bit of the gruntwork - it's more likely they may have resources to look at it - instead of just stating "I'd like to see this xxxxxx" and then nothing more - which means they have no idea on how much work it is, nor do they set any people aside to look at it. Just common sense :)

 

And good luck, LoBiSoMeM :)

The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it's open | The important thing is not to stop questioning

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Ah, it clears it up a bit. Yes, even though reference in a couple of posts - the "hate" reference has nothing to do with this thread. :)

 

Maybe you could reference which "fix" you need to install?

Maybe make a list on what to do - and clear enough for ED to include it in a future patch?

And a full ist of requirements - so its easier for them to pick up on what you mean?

 

I mean, if you do a bit of the gruntwork - it's more likely they may have resources to look at it - instead of just stating "I'd like to see this xxxxxx" and then nothing more - which means they have no idea on how much work it is, nor do they set any people aside to look at it. Just common sense :)

 

And good luck, LoBiSoMeM :)

 

Good point! :thumbup:

 

My contribution:

 

FreeTrack software: http://www.free-track.net/english/freetrack/telechargement.php

 

SDK: In the software itself. A clear folder with all C, Delphi, etc...

 

ED just need to use the FreeTrack Interface to have FreeTrack support.

 

No real technical problems to do this. If have TIR support, FreeTrack Inteface use are simple. ED uses the 3D data stream by NP API. Can use the 3D data strem by FreeTrack open source interface too.

 

Simple? I don't know... :pilotfly:

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does Freetrack and/or the others work with DCS?

 

what problems are there?

 

no piont saying "i want i want" all the time and complaining about x, y and z.. cos that will get you now where fast.

So relax take a step back THINK about what you want to say and put it down in a RESPECTiful manner.

____

EDIT: bit late but oh-well

The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance.

"Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.."

https://ko-fi.com/joey45

 

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does Freetrack and/or the others work with DCS?

 

what problems are there?

 

no piont saying "i want i want" all the time and complaining about x, y and z.. cos that will get you now where fast.

So relax take a step back THINK about what you want to say and put it down in a RESPECTiful manner.

____

EDIT: bit late but oh-well

 

I'm talking to ED with all the respect possible.

 

Why are you misleading the thread?

 

I start with a simple question: will I be able to use freetrack in the next patch? Will I need to install a fix, hack, or ED will use the FreeTrack open source interface too?

 

I don't like NP. I have the right to do this and say this. Nothing to do with ED, by now. But I will edit my initial post... a little bit tired of this kind of niilistic discussion...

 

Don't mislead the topic, please. I don't want to discuss NP products, NP API, etc. I want to know if ED can implement the use os FreeTrack Open source Inteface in the next patch, the SDK are available, etc.

 

Simple. It's a legit suggestion. Why only one product support? We can have more options, will be good and not a big amount of work to do!


Edited by LoBiSoMeM
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Hey LobBiSoMeM, as far as i know, there were plans to integrate a free interface, whether this was free-track's own i don't know, i think it was supposed to be a totally independent one, however, work on this has ceased due to a request (for whatever that means) by NP. These are, to my best knowledge, the facts about interface integration. I think one can figure what happened.


Edited by sobek

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Hey LobBiSoMeM, as far as i know, there were plans to integrate a free interface, whether this was free-track's own i don't know, i think it was supposed to be a totally independent one, however, work on this has ceased due to a request (for whatever that means) by NP. These are, to my best knowledge, the facts about interface integration. I think one can figure what happened.

 

Well, if it's true, I think ED must inform we customers about this.

 

I know a lot of peole who uses FreeTrack as head tracking device/software solution and bought DCS:BS.

 

If don't exist a legal or contract issue, I really will apreciate one standing about this subject by ED. I bought ED software, not NP software or hardware.

 

I'll like to see some discussion about other options of head tracking... NP hardware and interface is not the only option available. And head tracking technology isn't NP monopoly. Maybe one interface, but never the technology.

 

This isn't a "forbidden" subject. It's a necessary discussion about our freedom to use our hardware resources. If I can provide 6DOF HT data, with free software and free interface, why a software like DCS:BS can't use this or why we can't discuss this subject?

 

I only want some coherent answers... I 'll really apreciate other HT solutions support! I saw a lot of "pure TrackIR topics" with no problems or warnings.


Edited by LoBiSoMeM
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I did solid Freetrack, I know its limitations, FPS. But I tested it and it really is good in DCS and LO - can't compare it to TrackIR but if I felt good I don't need any another much more expensive hardware than I built. Simple, cheap and good in functionality. What want more?

Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D

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This isn't a "forbidden" subject. It's a necessary discussion about our freedom to use our hardware resources. If I can provide 6DOF HT data, with free software and free interface, why a software like DCS:BS can't use this or why we can't discuss this subject?

 

We can discuss this? I can't see any legal problem.

 

Just to clarify: on these boards you can discuss parts of the subject, while others are off-limits. We had this debate about FT vs. TrackIR in the past, with fanboys on both sides etc. pp., and it was absolutely no good, it turned into a trenchfight very quickly, with all kinds of unfounded accusations. That's why discussions about the product- and marketing-policy of one of the involved groups/companies are not allowed anymore, and if I see any more posts in that direction they will be deleted and the posters warned. This includes statements like: "xyz protects a monopoly by enforcing abc and imposing def..." or "I hate company xyz because..." and the like. Besides being a violation of forum rule 1.2, Eagle has a business relation with NP, NP employees are visiting these forums and provide help, so these kinds of posts are absolutely not helpful. If you have complaints, fine, send the respective company an email, or don't buy their product, but don't bring it here. And just because you can't see any legal issues with adopting the FT interface it doesn't mean that there are none.

 

What you can discuss are technical features of the different solutions, and the original question is also legitimate. I don't know the answer and I don't know if you'll get one, but this had been said some time ago:

 

Every joystick has standard software interface, that's why every joystick works in every game. For now there is no standard for head tracking devices software interface. We were going to add vendor-independent SDK in English release to allow every head tracking vendor (including FreeTrack) implement support of their devices for BlackShark. SDK has been removed from English release because of NaturalPoint request. Now we make agreement with NaturalPoint and we will release 3DOF version of our head tracking SDK soon.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=589080&postcount=40

 

As you can see ED are well aware of the problem, and also of the wish for support of other head tracking devices/interfaces, so there is no need to remind them.


Edited by Acedy
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Just to clarify: on these boards you can discuss parts of the subject, while others are off-limits. We had this discussion about FT vs. TrackIR in the past, with fanboys on both sides etc. pp., and it was absolutely no good, it turned into a trenchfight very quickly. That's why discussions about the product- and marketing-policy of one of the involved groups/companies are not allowed anymore, and if I see any more posts in that direction they will be deleted and the posters warned. This includes statements like: "xyz protects a monopoly by enforcing abc and imposing def..." or "I hate company xyz because..." and the like. Besides being a violation of forum rule 1.2, Eagle has a business relation with NP, NP employees are visiting these forums and provide help, so these kinds of posts are absolutely not helpful. If you have complaints, fine, send the respective company an email, or don't buy their product, but don't bring it here. And just because you can't see any legal issues with adopting the FT interface it doesn't mean that there are none.

 

What you can discuss are technical features of the different solutions, and the original question is also legitimate. I don't know the answer, but this had been said some time ago:

 

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=589080&postcount=40

 

As you can see ED are well aware of the problem, and also of the wish for support of other head tracking devices/interfaces, so there is no need to remind them.

 

I can undestand... :thumbup:

 

I'll wait the day when the major HT company will allow me to use the solution I want to use for 6DOF HT in my favorite sim. Or the day when the software companies will go against this.

 

But, as an ED consumer, not NP, I think this kind of contract MUST be explicit.

 

I'm not a fanboy. I like the quality of TrackIR hardware. But I'm also have a complaint to a company, ED, for FreeTrack Interface suport or others 6DOF HT solutions.

 

If exists an impeditive contract between ED and other company about this subject, as a consumer, I will apreciate if it's clarified when I buy the game.

 

All the boring discussion about marketing policies is not for me. I just want the true and respect of a company I respect.

 

But, by now, this is the best and honest answer I ever read by a software company with an "enhanced" title by now, without any "reverse engineering" crap! :)

 

Thanks. Will wait and will like to be fully informed. I want to discuss the technical aspect, but what the point if exist an exclusivity contract between ED and other company for 6DOF HT?

 

In this case, I just want know to not waste my time. And as a customer, I have this right. Or not?


Edited by LoBiSoMeM
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Every joystick has standard software interface, that's why every joystick works in every game. For now there is no standard for head tracking devices software interface. We were going to add vendor-independent SDK in English release to allow every head tracking vendor (including FreeTrack) implement support of their devices for BlackShark. SDK has been removed from English release because of NaturalPoint request. Now we make agreement with NaturalPoint and we will release 3DOF version of our head tracking SDK soon.

 

To clarify - NP has requested that ED not allow the use of an SDK, which would allow head tracking in ED simulations to be fully independent of NP protocols?

 

Instead a compromise has been reached, whereby any non-NP head tracking is limited to 3DoF?

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To clarify - NP has requested that ED not allow the use of an SDK, which would allow head tracking in ED simulations to be fully independent of NP protocols?

 

Instead a compromise has been reached, whereby any non-NP head tracking is limited to 3DoF?

 

Unfortunally, I undestand this way... and the lack of direct answers lead to beliave in some kind of exclusivity contract, suport removal, sales share, etc.

 

Still waiting some direct answer as an ED customer, but I think the non-TrackIR-combo customer opinion doesn't matter.

 

Why give suport to a "minority"? Only because we bought DCS titles?

 

DCS:BS is only 39,99 USD...

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  • 3 weeks later...

It's clear I think

 

NP is doing there best to shut out other head tracking options with encrypted files and there propriatary tracking system.

 

What I do not like no matter how much better it is! Is that I would have to by there system to make it work. That's a monopoly.

 

Although I will probably buy there TrackIr 4 pro soon. Because I just don't have the time to mess with building free track or another Open Source system.

 

But one still should have the option, and not be shut out by insider deals.

 

I think everyone is tired of that kind of marketing tactics at least in the

Good old USA.

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