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Note to the developers for the Apache AH-64A module


Ivonq

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Dear Developer,

 

I want to address a note to you in regards of the Apache AH-64A module. I know that it will take some time before we'll see some actual development, but I want to make sure that my point comes accross and should be debated within your team while planning for the development cyle.

 

The fact is that the Apache is a two seater, which means that the single-player will be partly controlled by the AI. In that case, it is of the upmost importance that the AI is under control of the player in its behavior. Meaning that one can instruct the pilot or gunner how to behave. And that the player can switch the seats in midair.

 

An example of how it could be is that:

 

The player starts as the pilot, takes off, flys to the target, and autohovers on a safe distance, where the player switches roles and takes the gunners seat, which allows him to track and lock onto the targets and eventually taking them out.

 

I raise this concern as in Armed Assault and other sims the two seaters AI is not correctly implemented. There for example: if one switches seats as player from pilot to gunner, the helicopter which was just auto-hovering a second before, automatically lands. Which in its turn makes the 30mm gun useless. And when one flies as a pilot the gunner makes all the decisions of which weapon is used etc, etc.

 

I hope we would be able to prevent this kind of issues.

 

My compliments towards the Black Shark efforts, it really makes me look forward to the Apache AH-64A module, which will be a major success as it is much more accessible for a Western audience. And please add some Middle east terrain with it, as most of us simmers like to experience reality, as close as possible.

 

All the best!!! Keep up the good work!!!


Edited by Ivonq
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I raise this concern as in Armed Assault and other sims the two seaters AI is not correctly implemented.

 

Minor nitpick - Armed Assault is about as much a "sim" as Doom is an RTS. :P

 

In a similar vein, "switching" seats would probably be something for the "game" mode as opposed to the "simulator" mode, since part of simulating an AH64 is the fact that there are two people aboard and you have different roles. Of course, there are ways to handle that and Longbow 2 is a good example. I'm sure that ED has some ideas on how to sort this. :)

 

What I suspect is that they'll try to get an expanded "wingman" AI where you instruct the gunner on which types of targets he is to engage and whether he may fire at his own dicretion or only on command. But ah well, it's waaaaay early to speculate since we'll have to enjoy the A10 first.

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Actually I see the AH64 mod for Arma as worthy of calling it a sim in its own right. Although the FM is basic it still is better than anything most other FPS have released. I think the 2 seat approach has many options. Other sims in the past have tried all 3 approaches eg.

1/AI in front seat.

2/MP both seats

3/ability to switch seats

The ability to switch seats doesn't remove realism from the sim what it does is give the player the flexibilty to do both jobs. The MP for front and back seat enhances the realism quite alot though. Janes LB2 had this feature and thats also one of the advantages Arma has with its gunships. It would be cool to have an AI that could do the job without the need for pit switching.

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Minor nitpick - Armed Assault is about as much a "sim" as Doom is an RTS. :P

 

In a similar vein, "switching" seats would probably be something for the "game" mode as opposed to the "simulator" mode, since part of simulating an AH64 is the fact that there are two people aboard and you have different roles. Of course, there are ways to handle that and Longbow 2 is a good example. I'm sure that ED has some ideas on how to sort this. :)

 

What I suspect is that they'll try to get an expanded "wingman" AI where you instruct the gunner on which types of targets he is to engage and whether he may fire at his own dicretion or only on command. But ah well, it's waaaaay early to speculate since we'll have to enjoy the A10 first.

 

You can switch roles in mission during Steel Beasts, and that's about as much a simulation as anything is. In fact, I envision the Apache could work in a very similar way.

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Minor nitpick - Armed Assault is about as much a "sim" as Doom is an RTS. :P

 

 

No, it is very much a sim, just not the kind that most players are use to. Which is why so many find it very confusing.

and for these issues is why I think they will never develop the AH-64 module

 

It is on their list of modules to make, but it isn't next on their list by a long shot. Anyone remember Janes Combat Simulations Longbow 2? It simulated the AH-64 very well and was a sim that was way ahead of its time.

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I think they should focus on Single seat aircraft.... works out better and feels more realistic to just switching seats

 

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Possibly keep it an only MP option, and in the single player game you take the role of Pilot with AI gunner or Gunner with AI pilot. No switching.... I choose pilot because I'll never trust AI to fly me around ;)


Edited by Ovenmit

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Has the Apache ever been confirmed as the release after A-10? I don't think it has, and anyway, I hope it's a fast mover instead :)

 

From all the threads I've read sofar it will defenitely come!

 

And that is in my opinion a great thing, as the Apache has a big appeal for most of us.

 

Even more important, it has a big appeal for those who are new to the sim genre, which would translate in an increase of commercial success and thereby ensuring the further existence of the company.

 

Flying the Apache will better than flying the Black Shark, because of its more advance systems :).

 

It is after all the best Attack Helicopter in the world.

 

And I think most people are looking more forward to the Apache than flying the A-10.

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I think the AI in one seat would be a massive problem to overcome for any two seater design in a sim to the standard of black shark and I really can't see any two seaters being brought into DCS soon. As for multiplayer, it would be a blast playing with friends or people of similar skill, but being paired with someone who is of a very different skill level (i.e. ace pilot with a gunner who doesn't know where the master arm switch is) would be a problem too, just take a look at the range of skill levels on some of the DCS: Black Shark servers.

 

There seems to be a lot of speculation about the Apache, but unless I've missed it, I've never seen any anouncements from ED regarding what will be coming after the A-10. Although there were some nice screenshots of an Apache cockpit model.....

 

Kamov had some input in the Black Shark sim, and ED were contracted to produce an A-10 sim for the US military, so they have access to a lot of info for these aircraft. I'm not sure if they'd have the same kind of info available for the Apache, or a lot of other aircraft for that matter.

 

As for advanced systems, if we see an Apache, I'm pretty sure it won't be the AH-64D Longbow, as a lot of the bells and whistles on it would be classified. ED have said they aren't keen on making guesses when modelling the systems of the aircraft. If we ever see an Apache I reckon it'll be the less advanced AH-64 A version.

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^^ infact ED themselves have said exactly that...that they are working on the ah64a (at some level)

 

Also, my opinion on the Seat issues?..

I think it's a reasonable non issue...ED allready have AI controlling helicopters and weapons deployment...I don't think its as huge a step AI wise as peeople might think....now Multiplayer in 1 aircraft is maybe a bit harder ?

 

As for Single player, I do not think that it is important to be able to "swap seats" mid flight...infact I think it's a bit silly TBH .. either you are the Pilot or the W/O..

..maybe in Arcade mode...


Edited by nemises
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Minor nitpick - Armed Assault is about as much a "sim" as Doom is an RTS. :P

+1 :thumbup:

 

ArmA is not good example, is infantry sim with option to use vehicles.

 

If Janes LB2 could support 2 seat MP I can't see why ED couldn't do the same.

ED say in the past AH-64A for DCS have two seats, and advanced IA for complex comunication and control with teammate of other seat. What is the question? DCS:Apache have 100% functionallity two-seats.


Edited by Legolasindar

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^^ infact ED themselves have said exactly that...that they are working on the ah64a (at some level)

 

Also, my opinion on the Seat issues?..

I think it's a reasonable non issue...ED allready have AI controlling helicopters and weapons deployment...I don't think its as huge a step AI wise as peeople might think....now Multiplayer in 1 aircraft is maybe a bit harder ?

 

As for Single player, I do not think that it is important to be able to "swap seats" mid flight...infact I think it's a bit silly TBH .. either you are the Pilot or the W/O..

..maybe in Arcade mode...

 

It is more of a concern after having issues in some other games. AI guidance and seat switching are in my opinion an essential part if it needs to become a commercial success.

 

As of the other remarks about the Apache AH-64D and AH-64A. Well, the AH-64A, although older, will blow everything away on the sim market and it will be the coolest thing ever to be able to fly it. And commercially speaking, it will be a goldmine, because who doesn't want to fly the best Attack Helicopter in the world and put some hurt on insurgents/targets?

 

As to ED's approach to first model the A-10, I like it, because it allows me to choose between winged or a rotor experience. But as most, I'm really anticipaiting for a sim of the Apache as it will be the experience I dream about without being ever to be able to fly that bird in real.

 

I will support the A-10 module for the reason above and to motivate ED to bring us the Apache module.

 

As to the developers, it would be nice if they could confirm that they are working on the Apache AH-64A and ask for the communities input for reference material and involvement in the project. I for one would be willing to spend some free time to help them acquire the best possible Apache sim bar none. I hope we can see some positive feedbak form ED in the form of a statement the current development cycle. Where they are at now and what is down in the pipeline.

 

My only slight disappointment about the Black Shark experience is the complete lack of advanced nighttime equipment. Although realistic I seriously miss a FLIR like experience, which is something what the Apache AH-64A will include.

 

So, to the ED boys and girls, focus and bring us the best and be successful at doing it, you have our support!!!


Edited by Ivonq
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No, it is very much a sim, just not the kind that most players are use to. Which is why so many find it very confusing.

 

Well, I could maybe stretch myself into accepting it as simulating infantry combat. But as soon as you involve anything other than infantry and 5t-trucks it becomes so simplified that you might as well play FarCry 2. (IMHO) Therefore, my point of how it's strange to use those parts of how ArmA does something as an example for how to do something in a simulator that seeks to be truly hardcore.

 

ArmA does not even attempt to "simulate" rotary aviation, just as little as it attempts to simulate fixed-wing aviation. (I loved the video where the guy landed a herc backwards. :D ) It simulates them only in about as much detail as Counter-Strike simulates real infantry combat.

 

That all said, this doesn't mean that it is completely useless. I remember reading articles about how the US Army used specially modified versions of Doom and Quake to allow training in fire support and so on in an easily accessible manner.

 

So to clarify: saying "ArmA does helo combat like this, this should be an idea for DCS" is about as sound (IMHO) as it is to say "DCS does infantry combat like this, this should be implemented in ArmA". DCS may be as hardcore as it wants in the flight aspect, but there's no way it's handling of infantry would transfer to a game like ArmA. There might be good ideas that transfer, but that would be incidental.

 

(Note: I'm not including mods in this evaluation. Mods are a different matter.)

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ED say in the past AH-64A for DCS have two seats, and advanced IA for complex comunication and control with teammate of other seat. What is the question? DCS:Apache have 100% functionallity two-seats.

 

The point is: Maybe is too early for all that stuff. MP dual cockpit doesn't look very hard to implement (moreover since Lockon 1.02 already has this feature), but complex IA for realistic gunner/pilot behaviour... ahhh, these are big words!! Only time will tell us, but I wouldn't be sad if ED finally decides to go for a multi-role aircraft instead :)

 

Regards!!



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...but complex IA for realistic gunner/pilot behaviour... ahhh, these are big words!!...

 

Precisely!

 

With the Limitations of the Current Engine I personally would not want the A.I. to be making decisions on my behalf whilst I attempt to force-feed some Insurgents Hellfires.........Can and Will only end in Tears :cry:

 

Now with the development of the New Engine..........There is Indeed Hope.

 

Time Will Indeed Tell :)

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Precisely!

 

With the Limitations of the Current Engine I personally would not want the A.I. to be making decisions on my behalf whilst I attempt to force-feed some Insurgents Hellfires.........Can and Will only end in Tears :cry:

 

Now with the development of the New Engine..........There is Indeed Hope.

 

Time Will Indeed Tell :)

 

This is exactly what I stated: you should be able to perfectly control the AI.

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