RealDCSpilot Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) well, becoming "obsessed" with setting up controls for DCS:BS, a thought crossed my mind, since i'm messing around with configuration of the controls... as we all know, when it comes to joystick-input, the black shark is a very touchy lady. the GUI-manual says, it's best to leave the axis input curvature at LINEAR because of the advanced flight model implementation. so here comes my question: the real ka-50 cyclic control compared to a joystick, maybe 4-5 times longer in size (i made a little sketch to illustrate the issue). if the input is simulated 1:1 and not scaled down to a joystick input range, this will result in much more sensitivity than "in reality". so is it really the fact that the controls work as intended? somehow i got the feeling that this is not the case. is there any joystick setup that ED used as a reference during development? theory: will a joystick-mod with real life dimension of the ka-50 cyclic result in a more realistic handling simulation of steering sensitivity? i'm very interested in other opinions, esp. g940 users? how do you adapt? what are your configuration settings? ps: i hope that nobody at ED starts to hate me for my little bit picky complaints, but i want to have the max. possible immersion! :smilewink: Edited October 2, 2009 by Alec Delorean i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobek Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) I don't think that a helicopter stick will deflect to the same angles as a small joystick does, that would be unpractical in such a small cockpit. Therefore those large sticks most likely have a steeper output curve, than the small ones, to compensate for the smaller angle of travel available. The easiest approach to such a problem is simply to look at full deflection of the stick, deflect the control surfaces fully at this point and proceed linear to center from every direction. I hope it is clear to you what i mean. That way, size and deflection angle of the stick do not matter, every stick will yield the same control input at the same deflection percentage. Edited October 2, 2009 by sobek Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinelnic Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I did mod my X45 to approximately the same dimensions of the actual stick, but using linear, the poor precision of the stick kept giving me issues near the center position. I then switched to a curved input and what I got is much better handling at low speeds or hover, but sluggish responsiveness when performing high-speed maneuvers. This takes tweaking... Also, I read somewhere about a study some canadians did, about introducing fluy-by-wire controls in helicopters. They found that using a small stick would indeed require curved input transformation, because even with high-precision sticks, the real pilots were at much discomfort with the small movement range of the sticks near the center position. But then ED claims that actual Ka-50 pilots found the linear setup to be the best... Westinghouse W-600 refrigerator - Corona six-pack - Marlboro reds - Patience by Girlfriend "Engineering is the art of modelling materials we do not wholly understand, into shapes we cannot precisely analyse so as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance." (Dr. A. R. Dykes - British Institution of Structural Engineers, 1976) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealDCSpilot Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) yes, this is what i'm talking about. when i'm trying to alter the curvature in the axis settings, the outcome is always unsatisfying somehow. But then ED claims that actual Ka-50 pilots found the linear setup to be the best... i really would like to know what stick or flightsystem they used. Edited October 2, 2009 by Alec Delorean i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckle Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 If you're fiddling with the controls, try messing with the saturation. I adjusted it in the relevant plane for each axis and found it made a significant difference as I was reducing the amount of potential throw- particularly with the Ka-50, you can't use maximum throw effectively anyway (instant blade strike/death) so it smoothed things out very well. The point is that you don't need full travel- you'll never use it with helicopter. If you'd like clarification, I'll post the settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealDCSpilot Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 @huckle yes, please post your settings. i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinelnic Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Huckle, let me kindly disagree. I like to fly low very fast following roads and rails, and to make hard turns (and recover from them) you need to use full range. You'll need this ability as well when strafing or flying very low to escape a hot area or when being pursued by a SuperCobra tossing hellfires at you like it's the end of the world and you've kidnapped Jesus. And believe me, it will happen... Westinghouse W-600 refrigerator - Corona six-pack - Marlboro reds - Patience by Girlfriend "Engineering is the art of modelling materials we do not wholly understand, into shapes we cannot precisely analyse so as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance." (Dr. A. R. Dykes - British Institution of Structural Engineers, 1976) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckle Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Damn, I've realised that my settings would be saved as an image file, not an archived file. I've imaged BS install, been playing RoF for past month (one-sim man, me). I posted about it after I first tried, this was for FFB stick but I think may help you also- http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=44109 I'm not sure if description there helps? The point was that (ie) instead of pitch joystick line running 45 degrees bottom left to top right, with saturation reduced to 85% in y axis but not x, it flattens the line down to say 30 degree angle, thus producing a more relaxed pitch response. Sorry that I can't post screenshots at the moment- it's not easy to follow if you aren't looking at control config in BS. @sinelnic You're welcome to disagree- every user is going to have different experience. I choose what works for me and if I think it might be useful for others, I'll post something. In this case, I retained 85-90% control authority, with a vast gain in smoothness and accuracy when gunning. This isn't directed at you, but I do find that there are a lot of people, including mods and developers, on this forum who are more concerned with telling people how they should fly, rather than helping them to get the most out of the game they purchased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannibal Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I don't think that a helicopter stick will deflect to the same angles as a small joystick does, that would be unpractical in such a small cockpit. Therefore those large sticks most likely have a steeper output curve, than the small ones, to compensate for the smaller angle of travel available. The easiest approach to such a problem is simply to look at full deflection of the stick, deflect the control surfaces fully at this point and proceed linear to center from every direction. I hope it is clear to you what i mean. That way, size and deflection angle of the stick do not matter, every stick will yield the same control input at the same deflection percentage. definitely... the joysticks usually have a 60 degrees of deflection where as the cyclic controller of typical height has around 45 degrees.. if you use gears to compensate... then, you can correct that.. i used a 4:3 ratio, and my cyclic works as good as a regular gaming joystick... IDEAL you want to use the full deflection of the pot for best resolution... messing around with the games axis curve is actually cheatting, plus, not all games have advanced controller setup like black shark and lo:fc... find me on steam! username: Hannibal_A101A http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197969447179 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealDCSpilot Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 woooo, hannibal, nice cyclic! ok, i will check out saturation settings. i just made a little track with my usual test course for setting up controls and trying out something. start - aim with unguided rockets - freestyle - catching the train - landing. i'm getting better with pedals now, it's my 2nd day with the g940. getting warm with the flightdirectormode too, but don't like this damn sensitive cyclic. ps: yes, i forgot the brakes...:music_whistling:FDfunWithPedals.trk i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Have you tried to turn down the g940's sensitivity in the logitech software? _:Windows 10 64 Bit, I7 3770 3.4Ghz, 16 Gigs Ram, GTX 960, TM Warthog, Track IR 5 w/Pro Clip:_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealDCSpilot Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 (edited) Have you tried to turn down the g940's sensitivity in the logitech software? can't find an option for that? or do you mean the force strength? (i leave these on standard 100%, centerspring deactivated) also played around with saturation settings, but i think this cuts off to much of the possible input. i will go for a complete reinstall of BS today, i think there is something messed up. i hope that will help. there is no force compensation during trim and other things related to ffb... Edited October 3, 2009 by Alec Delorean i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 It's in there. Can't remember how to get to it atm. I'll report back when i get home tonight. _:Windows 10 64 Bit, I7 3770 3.4Ghz, 16 Gigs Ram, GTX 960, TM Warthog, Track IR 5 w/Pro Clip:_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealDCSpilot Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 thanks shez! found it. will try a complete new setup with the profiler now. i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealDCSpilot Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 well, decreased sensitivity in the logi-gameprofiler to -> 0% !!! FD + aiming with rockets = perfect so far... it's also very cool, that you can program the profiler on the fly with alt+tab switching. i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirai Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 well, decreased sensitivity in the logi-gameprofiler to -> 0% !!! FD + aiming with rockets = perfect so far... it's also very cool, that you can program the profiler on the fly with alt+tab switching. I would also like to know if this sensitivity setting is the same as the overall effect settings (my profile is in swedish so I dont know what the name is for it in the english version but its the first dragbar from the top I'm talking about) Go Ugly Early Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealDCSpilot Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 (edited) @kirai made a screenshot, because i have the german version. applied this setting to every axis for blackshark and i'm happy with it somehow for the first time. i even programmed a very dirty version of PeterP's trim&rudder-unchain-fix into it. after exporting the profile to an xml-file you can easy edit and re-import it to the profiler. unfortunately, i have no experience with xml-programming, so the rudder fix works only very simple. a macro with a quick press and release of trim, followed by a very quick pressing of the Y and X keys for overiding the trimmed rudder position. Edited October 3, 2009 by Alec Delorean i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Oh nice! I've been wondering how to actually program special keypresses. That just may be the ticket. _:Windows 10 64 Bit, I7 3770 3.4Ghz, 16 Gigs Ram, GTX 960, TM Warthog, Track IR 5 w/Pro Clip:_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ightenhill Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Regarding sensitivity.. I seem to feel that response is a little twitchy.. But Im confused by the curves in the games set up process..does negative or positive reduce the sensitivity/response... I seem to be watching boxes fly around on graphs but Im not really understanding whats happening... Saitek x52 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Let me see if I can explain. A 1:1 ratio of input to stick movement would be a straight line as it is as default Take a curve that starts out gradual and gets steeper as it goes left or right. This curve would give reduced input per stick movement near the center of stick movement and become closer to a 1:1 ratio near the corners. I believe this would be a negative curve. This is where the terminology becomes fuzzy to me. But, if this is a negative curve then a positive curve would give more input that stick movement and make it more sensitive. Hope that helps. _:Windows 10 64 Bit, I7 3770 3.4Ghz, 16 Gigs Ram, GTX 960, TM Warthog, Track IR 5 w/Pro Clip:_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redeyemingo Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Hannibal, what gimbals are you using at the bottom of that CH flight stick handeled cyclic and is the shaft plastic or steel? I have the same CH stick and want to build a cyclic! awsome job Redeye Redeye i7 8700k, 16GB Nvidea GTX 1070 8GB, Gygabyte z370 Aorus ultra Gaming ,Corsair 16GB DDR4 Vengeance LPX 3000mhz,Samsung evo970 M.2 500GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealDCSpilot Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 i started a complete new thread about the g940, some kind of a compact summary. helpful for fresh g940 owners i hope and also regarding the sensitivity problem. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=45695 i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoOopiD Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 well, decreased sensitivity in the logi-gameprofiler to -> 0% !!! FD + aiming with rockets = perfect so far... it's also very cool, that you can program the profiler on the fly with alt+tab switching. I use a Logitech Force 3D Pro I think the logi-gameprofiler senstivity settings are stacking with game's senstivity settings. What works best for me is having no profile and just using the software to adjust the FF only. Use the senstivity settings in BlackShark. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Crosshair VIII hero wifi, 3800x w/ Enermax 360 AIO cooler (push-pull), 32gigs DDR4 Ripjaws 3600, Win 10 home on a Plextor PCI-E x4 3gb/s HD, EVGA 2070 Super FTW3 ultra+, Soundblaster Z Rift S, M$FFB2, CH Pro throttle, Saitek pedals BS2, A10C, P51D, SPITFIRE, FC3, Uh-1H, F86, Mi-8MTV2, SA342, MIG21-bis, AV8BNA, F14, F16, FA-18C, SUPERCARRIER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manne Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I use the Logitech Xtreme 3D Pro and have my x-axis and y-axis at 50% sensitivity with 5% deadzone. Problem is that I don't know if I'm "cheating" because the real BS has or more sensitivity or not... Flying works really well with above settings but not sure if it resembles the real deal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martillo1 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I use the Logitech Xtreme 3D Pro and have my x-axis and y-axis at 50% sensitivity with 5% deadzone. Problem is that I don't know if I'm "cheating" because the real BS has or more sensitivity or not... Flying works really well with above settings but not sure if it resembles the real deal... Well, think of it as if Kamov engineers customized the controls under your petition :D Vista, Suerte y al Toro! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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