Force Feedback

[Outlaw24]

I'm considering upgrading to a force feedback HOTAS, waiting to compare the Saitek X-65F aganist the current Logitech G940. My question is will the up coming DCS add-on titles continue to support force feedback?

 

I should have said Saitek X-65F force sensing HOTAS

Edited November 10, 2009 by Outlaw24

[sobek]

The saitek is not a force feedback stick.

 

There has been no reason to suspect force feedback will no longer be supported, the support is already in the engine, so why take it out?

 

Btw. please consider posting in the appropriate forum next time;)

[Gadroc]

If force feedback is a key feature you're looking for then there is only one HOTAS which is the G940. The new Saitek X-65F is force sensing not force feedback.

 

I love my G940 but I go back and forth on whether the force feedback is great or not. To be honset it still takes just as much "training" to understand how to use the trimmer and auto pilots correctly in Black Shark. You also still have to deal with proper centering of the pedals still during trimming.

 

You do "pay" for the force feedback with some inconsistency in the pressure on the stick. There is a noticeable play area where there is very little back pressure on stick movement. Note that this is not a dead zone as the G940 responds with axis change in game with the slightest of movements. Also when the force is higher you get a slighty "notchy" feel. These issues may be solved with updated drivers and games, but that is yet to be seen.

[Outlaw24]

If force feedback is a key feature you're looking for then there is only one HOTAS which is the G940. The new Saitek X-65F is force sensing not force feedback.

 

I love my G940 but I go back and forth on whether the force feedback is great or not. To be honset it still takes just as much "training" to understand how to use the trimmer and auto pilots correctly in Black Shark. You also still have to deal with proper centering of the pedals still during trimming.

 

You do "pay" for the force feedback with some inconsistency in the pressure on the stick. There is a noticeable play area where there is very little back pressure on stick movement. Note that this is not a dead zone as the G940 responds with axis change in game with the slightest of movements. Also when the force is higher you get a slighty "notchy" feel. These issues may be solved with updated drivers and games, but that is yet to be seen.

 

Gadroc, thanks for the info, nice to have the viewpoint of a current owner/user.:thumbup:

[ddahlstrom]

I have a G940 and after a month of stuggling with it in Black Shark, I've gone back to non-FFB trim using the 1.01 style trim. As Gadroc also alludes to, there is considerable slop in the center (in both FFB and non-FFB modes), but at least in non-FFB mode you can set a deadzone to compensate. I use 15% deadzone on both the x and y axis on the stick and also on the rudder. If I don't do this, the trim doesn't always recognize when I've centered my controls. A secondary problem with FFB trim is that it almost always induces unintended motion in the aircraft and rarely permits you to lock the attitude exactly where you want it. Non-FFB trim avoid most of these problems.

 

The G940 hardware is evidently capable of being very precise, however, the games it is used with (evidently) must be carefully programmed to take advantage of this precision. In FSX, for example, I don't notice any of the slop evident in BS. For non-FFB mode we're apparently stuck with the slop in the stick until Logitech does something about it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when it comes to the G940, Black Shark isn't exactly it's killer application.

Edited November 10, 2009 by ddahlstrom

[Frederf]

How do people with FFB sticks and non-FFB rudder pedals manage? Doesn't turning on the FFB trim mechanics make it so non-FFB rudder pedals don't trim properly?

[sobek]

How do people with FFB sticks and non-FFB rudder pedals manage? Doesn't turning on the FFB trim mechanics make it so non-FFB rudder pedals don't trim properly?

 

The pedal trim will work pretty much the same with FFB or without.

[ddahlstrom]

The pedal trim will work pretty much the same with FFB or without.

 

On the contrary, it works quite different. There are two non-FFB modes and one FFB mode. In the original 1.0 non-FFB mode, you press the trim, then must recenter your controls (cyclic & rudders) in about 1 second before the trim locks in. In the new 1.01 non-FFB mode (which I prefer), after you press the trim, the simulator will wait for as long as it takes until you center your cyclic and rudder. I like this because it takes the guess work out of knowing exactly when trim locks in and seems to avoid "bumps" upon trim lock. People who have sticks that do not center precisely will sometimes report trouble with this mode since the sim may not detect that they have centered their controllers and so appears to have locked-up their controls (the G940 does this). I find that adding a bit of deadzone in the offending controller (either cyclic, rudder, or both) can cure this.

 

With all this said, FFB trim is quite different when it comes to the rudder. In FFB mode, when you hit the trim button, your cyclic will instantly lock in its new position (good), but the revised virtual rudder center position will also be locked in instantly (bad)! In other words, you don't get the 1 second grace to move the rudder to center before trim locks in, nor does the simulator wait until you get your rudders centered before it adjusts your yaw. You can see this by observing the controller window (Ctrl-Enter I believe). As soon as you hit trim in FFB mode you will see your rudder position slide over immediately. This is especially noticeable if you are currently holding the pedals in a highly deflected position.

 

While one can try to get used to immediately centering the rudders upon trim activation, I could just never get consistent performance, and unless your pedals are almost centered to begin with at the time you activate trim, it is almost impossible to get them centered fast enough not to induce unwanted yaw. For me, this is what completed my write-off of FFB mode in BS. Hopefully, we'll see a patch, but until then, the 1.01 style trim actually works very nicely.

Edited November 11, 2009 by ddahlstrom

[sobek]

While one can try to get used to immediately centering the rudders upon trim activation, I could just never get consistent performance

 

Speak for yourself. I'm using a twist rudder atm but it works pretty well.

[ddahlstrom]

Speak for yourself. I'm using a twist rudder atm but it works pretty well.

 

If you're using a twist rudder or rocker, it is likely that the effect of the yaw shift kicking in immediately is somewhat reduced by the small movement needed to bring it back to center. When using pedals however, the greater distance magnifies the effect. Either way, trim does work different in FFB mode. It's up to the individual to decide whether it works well enough for them.

[sobek]

If you're using a twist rudder or rocker, it is likely that the effect of the yaw shift kicking in immediately is somewhat reduced by the small movement needed to bring it back to center. When using pedals however, the greater distance magnifies the effect. Either way, trim does work different in FFB mode. It's up to the individual to decide whether it works well enough for them.

 

You might be right on that. Still got no idea why ED would build an option to exclude rudder from trim.

[-Bazong-]

You might be right on that. Still got no idea why ED would build an option to exclude rudder from trim.

 

I would like such an option, eventhough I manage with non-FFB trim on the pedals and FFB-trim for the stick - I'd prefer to disable rudders from trim and make them non-centering.

[ddahlstrom]

I would like such an option, eventhough I manage with non-FFB trim on the pedals and FFB-trim for the stick - I'd prefer to disable rudders from trim and make them non-centering.

 

I agree that this should be an option; however, after using pedals for a while I realize that there are genuine advantages to wanting to trim the rudder, even in FFB mode. My suggestion is to simply implement a variant of the 1.01 style trim. In other words, in FFB mode, when trim is pressed, the cyclic should immediately lock into its new physical position and remain controllable, while the yaw should be immediately locked into its current virtual position until the pilot recenters the pedals. Once the pilot centers the rudders, yaw control will be unlocked.

 

It's simple, and preferrable IMHO to blocking rudder trim altogether. In some ways it might even be most strongly benefical to users of twist sticks or rockers since those devices tend to be more difficult than pedals to hold in a precise sustained position over time (I know, having used both extensively in the past).