Spotting hidden anti air

[Cradle]

Greetings.

 

Ive been playing BShark for 5 days now and after intensive training i have moved on to the different missions. I have no real problems with anything exept actually spotting the enemies (when in my sights i know how to engage and kill). I dont want to use labels and even when i turn those on i still have a hard time finding the enemy before they find me.. i use a low, stand of strategy where i have a fairly clear view of the engengement zone but not in range of the anti air and look as hard as i can both with "my eyes" and the shkval zoomed in paning the area.. even if i KNOW where the enemy is (having died 20 times on the same mission and thus learned where the fire was coming from) i still cant see them because they are hidden under/behind trees.. if i try to move around to get in an other angel some hill or forest usually blocks the view completely.. the only options i have left is to slowly advance or move up.. intensly scanning the vicinity where the shots have been fired from.. BUT.. as i move closer/higher i get engaged..and more often than not shot down.

 

the frustrating part is that the targets that are in the open gives me no problem, and if the target is like behind a house or hill it cant see me either and thats just realistic, but the ones "in hiding" seem to see me and have no problems firing missiles/bullets trough branches or trees?? sometimes i have tried to carpet the suspected area with rockets but that seems like a long shot..even with the occational kill, and in order to do that i have to fly straight in towards the incoming AAA. besides its a rather stupid and fast way to waste rockets.

 

so.. bottom line.. any real suggestions/tactics how to see and lock up invicible targets without them engaging me? or is this a "graphical bug for the LOS" that needs to get adressed in a patch? to even the odds at least? It the enemy hides and suddenly emerges from the trees guns blazing when im moving close i would have been impressed.. but if the very trees seems to attack me... well.. ill just get angry.

[sobek]

Unfortunately, Trees are not collidable at this point, mainly due to restrictions of the engine, that would make collision detection extremely hardware demanding. Basically, they do not exist apart from their visual representation.

 

If you face such a situation, try not to move in the vertical, but rather in the horizontal plane, that is, change your postition and try to get a good LOS, nothing much else you can do. Always use standoff engagement against AAA, rockets are more spray and pray, useful for suppression, not pinpoint engagement, that's what the vikhrs are for.

Edited November 10, 2009 by sobek

[GGTharos]

Which mission is this, Cradle?

[Waldo_II]

Be patient. Either memorize the map presented to you beforehand, print it off, or take a screenshot and keep it up in the background. Also, stand back safely outside the combat zone and take like ten minutes to scan all potential areas for enemies. Villiages, roads, open fields, bridges, shorelines, etc. If there are only artillery-style AA threats, get really high and close up, and use the wide FOV to scan from above. Once you know where all the enemies are, choose your targets and engage from your max Vikhr limit. Always works.

[Frederf]

It can be difficult to spot some enemies. Memorizing the map or playing multiple times is kind of cheating. There should be a way to complete a mission the very first time, just like a real pilot is expected to do.

 

You might try using the Wingman in Recce mode or making decoy passes at large angles and long ranges to try and draw fire. You can slice across the threat area circle and watch for tracers or SAM launches.

[EtherealN]

Memorizing the map isn't cheating. Look down on your pilot's legs and see that plastic pocket he has on his legs? That's for things like maps, checlists and mission-related notes. ;)

 

Point with completing a mission first time like a real pilot is that the real pilot has normally spent at least an hour or two with briefings on weather, the tactical situation, the strategic situation, possible threats and so on. So when it comes to getting the awareness that a real pilot would have when he flies out you can achieve that too - just make sure to spend an hour going through the mission profile in detail before you hit "fly". ;)

 

If that doesn't seem like that much fun (heathen!) you'll sometimes have to accept a bit lesser performance.

[sweinhart3]

I think everyone has experienced this problem. My only work around was to have my wingman engage cause he can see and shoot thru trees as well. If you cant beat em, cheat. lol

[Huckle]

You know that it's possible to adjust the labels to show smaller and less obtrusive ,ie. can change to a small brown, dark green or gray dot that only pops up within eyeball range, and is barely noticeable.

I prefer immersion above everything else, but let's face it, it's a game- if you're not enjoying it, you wasted your money.

[PhoenixBvo]

Are these labels customized in a .lua file and could you tell us which one?

[DanKurt]

Yes ,I would like to make labels smaller. Would help with the immersion factor.:thumbup:

[Frederf]

Memorizing the map isn't cheating.

 

Shut up you idiot. I obviously meant memorizing the enemy positions not the terrain. Idiot.

 

I suggest watching the language. You disagreed with something. We get it. -GG

Edited November 13, 2009 by GGTharos
Moderation

[159th_Viper]

^^

 

Where do you get off calling someone an 'Idiot'? :music_whistling:

 

Gotta work on your People-Skills 'Ol Pip ;)

[Warbird_242]

Frederf - little hint.

 

Look below that idiots name - MODERATOR :D

[Huckle]

Are these labels customized in a .lua file and could you tell us which one?

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2643164/Searchpage/1/Main/278234/Words/lua+replacement/Search/true/More_Realistic_Labels.html#Post2643164

 

This is a starting point, make a backup and fiddle around with the parameters.

[PhoenixBvo]

Thanks, that's about what I want, although I'm thinking of just putting little dots at any range up to realistic max visibility (10 km?) That way you'd know if something is in those woods, but no idea whether its "harmless" infantry or a strela... To keep it interesting :)

[GGTharos]

That would be horribly UNrealistic. Unless well contrasted, you might not be able to see an enemy vehicle until you fly over it - though it is my understanding you may be able to see a tank from 3km.

 

If it's behind tall bushes/trees, all bets are off, unless you're looking right at it with SHKVAL.

[sobek]

Shut up you idiot. I obviously meant memorizing the enemy positions not the terrain. Idiot.

 

He did as well. Better watch it when calling someone an idiot. ;)

[159th_Viper]

That would be horribly UNrealistic. Unless well contrasted, you might not be able to see an enemy vehicle until you fly over it - though it is my understanding you may be able to see a tank from 3km.

 

If it's behind tall bushes/trees, all bets are off, unless you're looking right at it with SHKVAL.

 

QFT!

 

Being Ex-Infantry I recall well the feeling of Vunerability one has being a Foot-Soldier. You learn to Hide/Camo.....and you learn to do it well once the Shite hits the Fan.

 

There is NO WAY that you are spotting a Squad that know what they're doing from 30m on the Ground, never mind from the Air if you have added Green Top-Cover.

[isoul]

Spotting uncovered infantry and especially vehicles is quite easy at long distance...

 

Thats why infantry, being the most vulnerable, learns to hide and move while drawing the least possible attention! In case you are a foot soldier trying to hide from the eyes one man, 30m above the ground moving at 100km/h, is quite easy.

 

No matter what the difficulty to spot ground targets seems realistic to me.

[PhoenixBvo]

That would be horribly UNrealistic. Unless well contrasted, you might not be able to see an enemy vehicle until you fly over it - though it is my understanding you may be able to see a tank from 3km.

 

If it's behind tall bushes/trees, all bets are off, unless you're looking right at it with SHKVAL.

 

OK, I wasn't talking about realism GG. I meant interesting gameplay. Don't get me wrong: thusfar I've flown only "full real" and generally appreciate the high level of realism which DCS offers, except for the tree LOS issue. (Really hope this gets fixed with the introduction of the new engine)

Being shot down time and again by invisible AA, no matter how carefully maneuvring, has frustrated me such that I'm now considering cheating... I'm sorry if this sounds like giving up, but I think having fun should ultimately be the most important reason to fly this sim.

 

I will take your comment about the max visibility range of a tank being 3km into account though when editing the label ranges.

 

Btw: is it possible to make label ranges depend on on unit type more specific than air/sea/land? That way you could have labels appear at ranges according to the "visual cross section" of individual units.

[GGTharos]

OK, I wasn't talking about realism GG. I meant interesting gameplay. Don't get me wrong: thusfar I've flown only "full real" and generally appreciate the high level of realism which DCS offers, except for the tree LOS issue. (Really hope this gets fixed with the introduction of the new engine)

Being shot down time and again by invisible AA, no matter how carefully maneuvring, has frustrated me such that I'm now considering cheating... I'm sorry if this sounds like giving up, but I think having fun should ultimately be the most important reason to fly this sim.

 

I will take your comment about the max visibility range of a tank being 3km into account though when editing the label ranges.

 

 

My comment to you is this: If the AA is inside trees, the mission creator has blundered. It really isn't your fault.

If the AA is in a reasonable spot, then you need to revisit your tactics. Your maneuvering may indeed be careful, but you might be going to the wrong places and looking in the wrong places. If the mission designer is putting AA in sensibly, and you try to think like a ground guy who wants to protect his assets from a heli, you should be able to 'place' the approximate locations of AA with relative ease and find them, or if not, completely avoid those areas.

Finally, perhaps you are overestimating just how careful you are being.

 

 

Btw: is it possible to make label ranges depend on on unit type more specific than air/sea/land? That way you could have labels appear at ranges according to the "visual cross section" of individual units.

 

I don't think you can make them more specific, but I'm not an expert on that ...

[EtherealN]

I obviously meant memorizing the enemy positions not the terrain.

 

As an astute observer already noticed - so did I. Can you find a good reason why a squadron/regiment C.O. would let his troops and valuable aircraft out to the front without telling the pilots all they know about enemy troop disposition in the area?

 

Here's the rough of what a military briefing will include:

- Weather

- Tactical and Strategic situation on the battlefield

- Objective

- Details on terrain of objective

- Details on known opposition at objective, and on the ingress and egress routes

 

Probably also a few touches on what friendly assets will be operating in the area (to avoid blue-on-blue - or red-on-red if you'r russian. :D ), what kinds of backup assets are available, what you should do in case you have an emergency (alternate aerodromes, guidelines on ensuring that you bail over friendly territory etc) and a lot more.

 

So I meant exactly what I wrote - memorizing the map, including known enemy positions, is not cheating. Indeed, go tell a real combat pilot that you'd like to go to the front without studying in detail everything that is known about opposing force compositions in the area and he/she will look at you funny and ask if you've watched too many action movies. Well, actually, strike that - even the movies usually show a briefing where they talk about known enemy forces...

 

Now, obviously they won't know every detail of enemy compositions. They won't know the exact coordinate of every tank and SAM asset that the enemy has on hand. But you bet that in the age of satellites, UAVs, high-altitude spy planes, ELINT and all that other fun stuff a pilot will be told what to expect and where.

 

AND...

The mission editor even has a feature for this! Note how a mission designer can hide forces, both friendly and hostile, from view. Same with trigger zones and so on. So in most missions that have paid this aspect some mind you can even spend an hour looking at the actual mission file and not be unrealistic. Just judge the ones that are visible as "these are the people that our commanders have learned about through a variety of means".

[PhoenixBvo]

If the AA is in a reasonable spot, then you need to revisit your tactics. Your maneuvering may indeed be careful, but you might be going to the wrong places and looking in the wrong places. If the mission designer is putting AA in sensibly, and you try to think like a ground guy who wants to protect his assets from a heli, you should be able to 'place' the approximate locations of AA with relative ease and find them, or if not, completely avoid those areas.

 

Yes, of course tactical errors on my part will definitely account for some crashes...:)

Sometimes avoiding areas isn't possible, for example the stock mission "running the gauntlet" IIRC requires you to overfly the wp's right in the hotspots, of course after having neutralised everything from stand-off range. But exactly this is very hard if you can't spot the AA. I'm not saying they are in the forest in this case, they are mostly spread through towns. With all the clutter from buildings its next to impossible to know if you really got 'm all. Except by flying in and drawing some fire. You only get 3 wingmen though...

How would you advice to handle this mission?

Edited November 13, 2009 by PhoenixBvo
quote to clarify

[GGTharos]

Get FAST and put the flares out as you overfly the WPs; don't forget to jink :D

 

Or gain altitude so you can see them from high up in this case - or, perhaps the safest thing is to examine the town/village from multiple angles, at a distance. It takes longer, but when your (virtual) life's on the line, that's how it's done.

Edited November 13, 2009 by GGTharos

[Panzertard]

And remember - a well placed round from a tank, while it's not using infrared sensors may kill you silently.

So when near enemy units, do not linger :)