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Anyone else getting a little bit bored with BS?


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Anyway, Speed_2 - while I do agree that modders can indeed improve quality of a simulation. The problem would be in judging what actually is an improvement of quality. A commercial product has the advantage that it can be officially endorced and thereby display it's pedigree in an understandable manner.

 

Not that I am too worried about Falcon 4 in that respect (and it has the advantage of being a simulation of a very well proliferated aircraft, which increases the pool of authoritative "testers" even in an amateur setting), but the issue is there.

 

Well, a MAJOR shortcoming of DCS as it stands right now is we only have a SINGLE theater, and it's quite a small theater at that. It's a decent size for choppers, but it's just not going to cut it for fixed-wing aircraft. If you measure it, it's something like 800x800 kilometers. The SMALLER Falcon 4 theaters such as Balkans, Korea, Israel, etc are over 1000 km on a side. Side by side, DCS doesn't seem too bad compared to that, but that is not considering that a vast amount of the DCS theater is not populated and finished! Then there are the larger Falcon 4 theaters that are 1000nm (about 1870km) across (Desert Storm theater, Iran, Afghanistan, etc)! Now, Falcon 4 is just a single game. Look at other flight sims- Janes F-15E. Released in 1997. Theater size? Again, about 1000nm on a side, if not larger- they fit Iraq, Iran, and surrounding countries on a single theater! So compared to every other flight sim I have ever flown (excluding Longbow 2) DCS is seriously lacking in theater size.

 

So where did all these theaters for Falcon 4 come from? Modders, of course! There are TEAMS of people who will not only create these theaters for free, but have fun doing it. Furthermore, while some theaters may have stability issues, you can uninstall or just not use a theater, and it's all the same aircraft. No modifications are made to your basic F-16. So while I see where you are coming from,the arguement that "mods work so well with Falcon 4 because it's the well-known F-16" doesn't hold as far as theaters go. There is another reason your arguement doesn't exactly hold true with DCS- no real improvements are necessary to the Black Shark's avionics or flight model, both of which are the best I have ever seen for any kind of military flight sim. While some of the needed changes to DCS require source code eits, DCS could vastly benefit from modders adding new theaters and units!

 

As for what's a quality addon- well just release the addon and let the users decide! ED, if they released some sort of theater builder or mod builder software could even have a user agreement that any addons that are created by modders for DCS are the intellectual property of ED, and could take ownership of a theater or addon they like, and begin officially supporting it.


Edited by Speed_2

arrogant, realism-obsessed Falcon 4 junkie

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ED' date=' if they released some sort of theater builder or mod builder software[/quote']

 

EagleWiki on the terrain tools: http://en.wiki.eagle.ru/wiki/All_about_land

Thread about it: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=41814

 

There are people currently flying around in Spain, Hungary and Afghanistan (from the WIP mods I recall offhand).

 

As for theatre, here's a tidbit from the Gamespot review of F4:AF:

"Terrain graphics are much better than those included in the original sim, although they don't compare to those in modern simulations like Lock-On: Modern Air Combat. Aside from a lack of detail, the terrain is at least very functional for low-level ground attack missions, as it is filled with hills, mountains, valleys, and other features"

 

Given - that doesn't include mods and I've never run mods on top of AF. Mileage may vary.

 

But we are striding very far into Off-Topic land though and shame on me for participating in that. :P But I haven't been able to find a source on the terrain mesh detail in Falcon (neither AF nor FF), but the pictures I've seen aren't impressive. That is a big issue here, so if you have info on that I'd love it if you could PM it to me. :)

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EagleWiki on the terrain tools: http://en.wiki.eagle.ru/wiki/All_about_land

Thread about it: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=41814

 

There are people currently flying around in Spain, Hungary and Afghanistan (from the WIP mods I recall offhand).

 

As for theatre, here's a tidbit from the Gamespot review of F4:AF:

"Terrain graphics are much better than those included in the original sim, although they don't compare to those in modern simulations like Lock-On: Modern Air Combat. Aside from a lack of detail, the terrain is at least very functional for low-level ground attack missions, as it is filled with hills, mountains, valleys, and other features"

 

Given - that doesn't include mods and I've never run mods on top of AF. Mileage may vary.

 

But we are striding very far into Off-Topic land though and shame on me for participating in that. :P But I haven't been able to find a source on the terrain mesh detail in Falcon (neither AF nor FF), but the pictures I've seen aren't impressive. That is a big issue here, so if you have info on that I'd love it if you could PM it to me. :)

 

Well, I stand corrected! It is a huge surprise to me that other theaters are being worked on for DCS- this is the first I have ever seen it mentioned! That fills me with hope for this sim :)

arrogant, realism-obsessed Falcon 4 junkie

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Well, I got pretty bored with this sim a while back. The heli itself is the most realistic sim of a helicopter I've seen so far. It appears to be 100% real sim of the actual copter. And learning to fly a real aircraft is great. I don't know if everything is real though; it would be nice to have that verified.

 

However, the outside world sucks. Some of the AI don't appear to be able to hit the side of a barn even on expert. The Igla is supposed to have good defenses against flares, but usually misses. Also, even direct hits seem to have little effect. Where are all the ground forces ( besides the immobile stick people)?

 

It seems everything has been put into the sim of the heli controls and flight engine. All else was just an after thought.

 

Like the guy above said, an expensive tuxedo drinking Strawberry Hill from a paper cup whilst attending a WallMart christmas party.

 

You guys need to take a look at Arma II and Crysis Wars when building your next engine. Look at the detail of the terrain and buildings. Also the imagination put into it. Not to mention this sim desperately needs some FPS and human controlled ground troops and vehicles, ala Arma II. Also realistic destruction of buildings, vehicles, and terrain.

 

In a nutshell, gamewise it's pretty boring.


Edited by Logan9773
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What's with all the talk of how small the map is? How many times did I read on MP in LockOn people complaining how long it takes to fly to get to a fight... 800x800km is more than double that 90% of people want to fly... face it... if distances between bases are anything more than 150-200km there will be complaining now far it takes to fly... geees

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What's with all the talk of how small the map is? How many times did I read on MP in LockOn people complaining how long it takes to fly to get to a fight... 800x800km is more than double that 90% of people want to fly... face it... if distances between bases are anything more than 150-200km there will be complaining now far it takes to fly... geees

 

 

^^ absolutely agree... People already log out of the "Seige of Ust Lubansk" online because they don't want to fly back.

 

also surprised at how many people are asking for player controlled ground units etc etc... this is a study sim - not an MMO or VBS... Lessons from WWIIOL:Battleground Europe should teach this community taht if its high fidelity you seek then focus on the fidelity. WWIIOL is fun but hardly has any real depth on the simulator side. Neither does ARMAII. They have to compromise developer team and time across a VAST VAST amount of units and cannot spend the time or resourcing to bring any one item to the level of the Ka50.

 

And they shouldnt - re-read the parable of Janes A-10 from evilbivol's sig.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=38451&highlight=parable

 

This type of audience demands they do one thing Excellent... not 50 things OK. I have no doubt DCS will build over time and who knows what dreams may lie eh?

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Its a flight sim, its supposed to be boring. Outside of learning to operate and fly the aircraft, single player and the missions that come with it last only so long. You can only have so much fun by yourself before a game becomes boring. This is true for every single game. No matter how brilliant games like Super Mario, Half-life 2, Metal Gear Solid, or Black Shark are, they will become boring over time. Multiplayer has been and always will be the factor relating to how much time you put into a game. Granted you can probably enjoy flight sims alot longer whilst playing alone than most other games, but there is certainly a limit. Which from the comments people are making, seems to be something many have already hit.

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What's with all the talk of how small the map is? How many times did I read on MP in LockOn people complaining how long it takes to fly to get to a fight... 800x800km is more than double that 90% of people want to fly... face it... if distances between bases are anything more than 150-200km there will be complaining now far it takes to fly... geees

 

Wow, I don't know what to say... ummm... maybe first of all, just because the map is 800km by 800km, you don't have to fly 1600km.

 

Secondly, this is not "Super Turbo Fighter-Bomber 3" or "HAWX" or whatever god-aweful arcade "sim" is currently popular. This game is supposed to be realistic, and most REAL flights are long. If all you want to do is go around and blow crap up, you picked the wrong game. Long flights MUST be included to be a realistic simulation. People who complain about long flight times usually have no business playing a realistic flight sim (though it depends on the exact nature of their complaint...)

 

Finally, even if you would get bored by long flights, or have the much more legimate excuse of simply not having the enough free time available, most sims have a time compression option available to still simulate a long flight but allow you to do it in a reasonable amount of real-life time. The couple times I tried out TC in DCS it didn't work very well- the computer slowed down terribly! I donno if that issue is specific to just my machine, or if everyone has it.

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arrogant, realism-obsessed Falcon 4 junkie

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Its a flight sim, its supposed to be boring. Outside of learning to operate and fly the aircraft, single player and the missions that come with it last only so long. You can only have so much fun by yourself before a game becomes boring. This is true for every single game. No matter how brilliant games like Super Mario, Half-life 2, Metal Gear Solid, or Black Shark are, they will become boring over time. Multiplayer has been and always will be the factor relating to how much time you put into a game. Granted you can probably enjoy flight sims alot longer whilst playing alone than most other games, but there is certainly a limit. Which from the comments people are making, seems to be something many have already hit.

 

The problem I have is that while Black Shark overall is still a great game, once you get past learning the chopper and weapons systems, the rest of the game seems a little too shallow in comparison to other sims. With only scripted missions, you have to go hunting for new missions to fly in multiplayer on the internet, or create your own. The scripted missions are also limited in scope, as we are pretty limited in our trigger options. There are some content additions- such as new theaters, new units, new triggers, new AI, some new mission dynamics- that would vastly improve the depth of the game. A dynamic campaign would be a very welcome addition in later modules of DCS which simulate aircraft that are less SOF, CAS, and FAC oriented (and we need FAC dynamics in DCS badly, dynamic campaign or no!). Also, I'd think that in 2009, we could work decent FACs and special forces mechanics into a dynamic campaign. Think outside the box people! The good news is that this is still a game that is very much being developed and added to, so I would imagine we will eventually see many and hopefully all of these problems and content issues addressed.


Edited by Speed_2

arrogant, realism-obsessed Falcon 4 junkie

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Wow, I don't know what to say... ummm... maybe first of all, just because the map is 800km by 800km, you don't have to fly 1600km.

 

Secondly, this is not "Super Turbo Fighter-Bomber 3" or "HAWX" or whatever god-aweful arcade "sim" is currently popular. This game is supposed to be realistic, and most REAL flights are long. If all you want to do is go around and blow crap up, you picked the wrong game. Long flights MUST be included to be a realistic simulation. People who complain about long flight times usually have no business playing a realistic flight sim (though it depends on the exact nature of their complaint...)

 

Finally, even if you would get bored by long flights, or have the much more legimate excuse of simply not having the enough free time available, most sims have a time compression option available to still simulate a long flight but allow you to do it in a reasonable amount of real-life time. The couple times I tried out TC in DCS it didn't work very well- the computer slowed down terribly! I donno if that issue is specific to just my machine, or if everyone has it.

 

Are you trying to give me a leason? if you are you are barking on the wrong tree budy :music_whistling:

 

FYI... I am flying realistic and I do like realism... what you obviously failed to see is that I was saying that people should not be complaining about the Georgian map because it is more than enough what MAJORITY of players preffer...

 

Also what OTHER SIMS you are refering to that have so much more then DCS? F4? pfft... how large is the Korea map by the way? is it more than 800x800km? (after checking it says: "The combined territories of South and North Korea is 244100 square kilometers" so lot less than 800x800km) Not to mention you want to compare fighter jet sim like F4 with helicopter sim like DCS BS (which by the way is way better then F4 in simulation departement in every way: graphics, sound, cockpit, avionics, FM... well fair enough.. it only has one extra thing... a dynamic campaign, but in my opinion that's not that so much worth because when you fly online you have same if not better realism as you fly against real people and not just AI)


Edited by Kuky

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The SMALLER Falcon 4 theaters such as Balkans, Korea, Israel, etc are over 1000 km on a side. Side by side, DCS doesn't seem too bad compared to that, but that is not considering that a vast amount of the DCS theater is not populated and finished! Then there are the larger Falcon 4 theaters that are 1000nm (about 1870km) across (Desert Storm theater, Iran, Afghanistan, etc)!

 

M8, all the user created campaigns for F4 are broken. There's so many bugs in those, you can only call them early WIP at the most. I won't even start to talk about the ATO, because it's such a mess. Problem is, work on those has stopped. So don't bring your 'F4 has so many wonderful campaigns' bull along, coz it ain't true. ;)

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M8, all the user created campaigns for F4 are broken. There's so many bugs in those, you can only call them early WIP at the most. I won't even start to talk about the ATO, because it's such a mess. Problem is, work on those has stopped. So don't bring your 'F4 has so many wonderful campaigns' bull along, coz it ain't true. ;)

 

You are refering to user-made-campaigns, right?

 

Because the dynamic campaigns for the different theaters work fine, as well as most single-missions do.

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You are refering to user-made-campaigns, right?

 

Because the dynamic campaigns for the different theaters work fine, as well as most single-missions do.

 

Not by my standards, all PMC made campaigns are broken. The ground war does not work as intended. Besides, there's lots of tiles and object misalignments all over those maps. No way anybody can consider those working correctly.

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Well, that's probably a matter of personal opinion, I guess. Kind of looking at the glass half empty or half full.

 

I prefer a dynamic campaign spreading over a huge battlefield with minor flaws anytime over a collection of scripted limited scale missions, even if they contain some randomized elements. ;)

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Well, that's probably a matter of personal opinion, I guess. Kind of looking at the glass half empty or half full.

 

I prefer a dynamic campaign spreading over a huge battlefield with minor flaws anytime over a collection of scripted limited scale missions, even if they contain some randomized elements. ;)

 

Don't get me wrong, i love F4's dynamic campaigns, but comparing the user made maps and campaigns to the stock ones and saying they work is wishful thinking, IMHO.

 

Nevertheless, PMC Taiwan is nearing completion, being in fact the first user made theater to actually work perfectly (No tiles and object misalignments, working ATO, working ground war. Kudos to FF).

 

Back OT. ;)

Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two.

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For me the problem with DCS:BS is the void lifeless world. A dynamic campaign is almost a must for me to be immersed in the sim. That is why the main sim I play is still Falcon 4:AF (in multiplayer only).

 

If the sensation of being in an actual conflict could be brought to DCS:BS then I think it would be 100 x better.

 

Still like DCS:BS for what it is though.

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Don't get me wrong, i love F4's dynamic campaigns, but comparing the user made maps and campaigns to the stock ones and saying they work is wishful thinking, IMHO.

 

Nevertheless, PMC Taiwan is nearing completion, being in fact the first user made theater to actually work perfectly (No tiles and object misalignments, working ATO, working ground war. Kudos to FF).

 

Back OT. ;)

 

Sorry, maybe I got it wrong - I only saw Korea-Campaign mentioned, not even the "new" Balkans-Campaign of AF.

 

 

IMHO both simulations have their pros and cons.

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I agree with Zorg, I feel same, DCS is really good game but I feel there so sterile and and I don't feel life too much.

 

Falcon seems to be better on this field.

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With the upcoming FC 2 update less than 2 months away I'm sure that will breath some new life into Black Shark. Real life CAP and CAS aircraft to coordinate with (online) will bring immersion to a new level I feel.

 

Dynamic campaigns are nice, I'm hoping DCS does get to that at some point, but for me playing online in a squad is what makes these sims truely shine.

 

I would love an AWACS view or ATC option...wrong thread to bring that up but it would be cool addition and relatively simple to impliment I feel.

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You guys need to take a look at Arma II and Crysis Wars when building your next engine. Look at the detail of the terrain and buildings. Also the imagination put into it. Not to mention this sim desperately needs some FPS and human controlled ground troops and vehicles, ala Arma II. Also realistic destruction of buildings, vehicles, and terrain.

 

Eh... next time I have 96 core machine with 48GB of RAM on my hand I'll ask ED to use CryEngine3 for their next DCS entry... But I fear that would still cover only like 10x10 miles of space, so the battlefield might become a bit "hot", resembling BF2 footage or so. :-)

Come on, wake up from that bad dream.

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Indeed. Logan9773 - as the developers of Arma II and Crysis why they haven't gone for DCS-level physics modeling, DCS-level avionics, laser physics, ballistics and so on. The answer - they're not DCS.

 

Hell - I've seen videos of Arma where people land aircraft backwards. :D

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Indeed. Logan9773 - as the developers of Arma II and Crysis why they haven't gone for DCS-level physics modeling, DCS-level avionics, laser physics, ballistics and so on. The answer - they're not DCS.

 

Hell - I've seen videos of Arma where people land aircraft backwards. :D

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Stop the kittencide now!

 

Okai, flying in ArmA may provide you with some good old fasion fun - and a good laugh when playing together with friends. :thumbup:

But if you add the simulation level of DCS into it Crysis/ArmA your computer would come to a halt ... and you would have to start referring to FPS in fractions. ;)

And all your friends would come knocking on your door to give you a slapping for introducing FPS-fractions into their MP-game. ;)

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