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Helo vs. Helo


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Stand-Off Approach:

 

ID Targets and Engage - Laser On, A/A and Auto Turn selected, WCS switch to manual and Master Arm On. Slave HMS to Target and Set Tracking Gate to Minimum.

 

Now, once the Helo's are about 14 clicks out, BRIEFLY LOCK and then immediately unlock target. Reason for this is that it enables the Tracking of the Targets without the Laser Lock and attendant warning.

 

Now that the Gate is tracking, select Vikhrs and wait........When Helo's are about 8.5km out, fire first Vihkr. Remember that the Target is not locked - Splash One - Does not know what hit him...........:music_whistling:

 

Slew to second Helo and repeat - Splashed at about 7km's out, giving you more than enough time and Stand-Off range to Stay well clear of the HZ and Bug out if things turn Pear-Shaped.

 

For an Interactive Illustration of the above approach, download and watch the following track -

 

[ATTACH]33477[/ATTACH]

 

 

Also see the following thread for other comments/suggestions:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=47028

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I'm not sure if there is any centralized source of tips, but I'll write down a few thoughts of my own:

 

Obviously, you want the AA mode on the weapon control panel. The subsidiary "Head-on" button is a bit trickier though - what it basically does is tweak the proximity fuse on the Vikhr missile to make a kill on an aircraft that is moving towards you more likely. I'm not sure what you should use if you are unsure of you target's course, but that's what it does. (Interesting sidenote - a few times I've actually managed to forget the AA+AA/HO settings on and proceeded to destroy ground units with that setting.)

 

Locking helicopters with the Shkval can however be quite difficult, and I would definitely recommend that you set up a few training missions for yourself with helicopters flying about for you to lock. The general trick is to spot the helicopter, see where it's headed, and use the HMS to place your Shkval seeker ahead of the target - that way you don't have to "chase" it, which is a hellish thing to do, but rather just wait for it to enter your seeker.

 

Another trick that can be used against hovering or slow-moving helicopters is to flip your weapon control to manual so that you can launch without a lock, and then launch the missile in front of the target. When you estimate that there is just a second or two until impact you gently slew the seeker over to the target and lock. This way the target will have only those one or two seconds to perform evasive action - while if you have a lock before launch the target's Laser Warning Equipment will be blaring like crazy.

 

But in my own opinion, the by far best AA weapon you have is the 30mm. Using the HE shells that thing is absolute murder for pretty much all helicopters, and with a bit of careful positioning you can actually score kills at up to 4km range (you'd typically want altitude over the target for that, use with caution in a SAM threat environment). It also has the added benefit that you can continually harass a maneuvering helicopter with it, forcing it to stay defensive while you approach to better range, whereas a Vikhr can be relatively easily avoided through sufficiently violent maneuvers. (Maneuver violent enough and the laser beam will move so quickly that your Vikhr ends up outside the beam - and being a beam-rider instead of the Hellfire-type of "homing-on-a-designator" that means the missile is spent.)

 

Finally, when you are getting really close, say you run into an enemy helicopter within very close range - say 1 kilometer - just cage the gun and use it in much the same way you'd use the guns on a World War 2 fighter aircraft - point with the helicopter and start the salvo the moment before your gunsight is about to pass the target. This is not a time where you can do the one shot one kill thing, since reaction times will cause you to miss. If the enemy in these close quarters is firing back at you, perform jinking maneuvers with both cyclic and collective - you want to be doing absolutely everything possible to make it difficult to get a bead on you. Sideslipping is effective here, since you can then keep the target in your sights and perform 3-dimensional jinks at the same time.

 

And in the end - practice, practice. This is not something that happens often on a typical mission, but when it does happen it is pretty much the most dangeorous situation you've ever been in. If you want something more dangerous you'd probably have to go online with your Ka-50 against FC2 (when it's released, obviously) and ask GG to hunt you with his F15. :P

 

And on that note: since it is so dangerous, and you do not have the advantage of a separate gunner and limited gun travel, it is sometimes better to just move away if the enemy helicopter appears unaware of you. You want to be reasonably sure of getting the kill in the first 5-6 seconds of the engagement, or move away. Remember - your mission is to kill tanks, not helicopters.

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Another trick that can be used against hovering or slow-moving helicopters is to flip your weapon control to manual so that you can launch without a lock, and then launch the missile in front of the target. When you estimate that there is just a second or two until impact you gently slew the seeker over to the target and lock. This way the target will have only those one or two seconds to perform evasive action - while if you have a lock before launch the target's Laser Warning Equipment will be blaring like crazy.

 

Sometimes it is hard to use cos Shkval can slew itself without reason you know and you have to fight against it by ,./; race :P

I agree, this method is really tricky, but u have to know more-less where the Vikhr is, so to use this style I think you have to be advanced pilot than rookie.

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Aye, the steps needed to pull that off successfully would be to translate kilometres to seconds - and do that as a "second nature" thing. The training for that would be to place targets on a map, and see how many seconds you have to impact at 7km, 6km, 5km and so forth. Thankfully there is a counter on the HUD that counts down to the next recommended lock time for the laser, which makes this easier.

 

The really difficult part is that since you don't have ranging information on the target, you need to train yourself to approximate range based on the size of the target in the Skhval seeker. It is very difficult but, when performed well, extremely lethal since it gives the target even less reaction time than he would have when an Abrams is preparing for a shot. Whether that is worth the difficulty... I dunno. But it definitely is one of those things that you get to brag about to your mates afterwards. :D

 

Just imagine this radio call on the opponent's teamspeak:

"Engaged defe... Oh ****** *** god **** it I'm down." :D

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Things starts to be worse when you are engaged within few clicks envelope. AI is extremely deadly using guided guns at head om. AI fire is virtually impossible to evade. So as soon as he starts shooting - you're dead. There are few ways to deal with this situation. I flown some coops 2hum vs 4 AI or 1 human vs 4AI and had gained some experience in this matter. First of all, gain as much airspeed as possible, aquire with Szkwal, launch Wichrs. If your Wichrs miss, dive into terrain to few meters AGL and using terrain try at all cost to merge past them, because all AI helos (experte or novice) are very weak and helpless when engaged from rear hemisphere. Switch to your cannon, make a fast dynamic wingover and engage on unguided mode (its useless to try to aquire a lock). If there are many helos on you, you have to kill as many as fast as possible, because when they`d turn at you- you're in close danger. In this case, pull max your collective and climb at max power as fast and as hard as possible, for it will take you out of engagement zone of enemy AI guns. If AI follows you, climb in spiral pattern, which will help you to outturn, keep in sight, and finally, dive on him, and score a kill.

Extreme caution should be paid against Apache. It eats all helos on breakfast and Hellfire fired at any range will surely spoil your day.


Edited by Meehau
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I pull a top gun and go in with guns like EtherealN said. Best thing to do is come from their 9 or 3 and hit their tail rotors. If you can sneak in behind them and then just get em all one by one or with a spray tactic. Make sure your gun is set to long burst if you do spray. If thats not possible and you are goin at em head on. Then increase altitude considerably over the target forcing them to nose up which will cause them to go back a bit and have to rudder over. As we all know, the apache and cobra are limited because of the nose of the aircraft to how high their guns can aim. Then you just do the quick little drop of all throttle and make a hard turn to whichever side, position the 30 ( i keep the gun on static so it doesn't move and it's always steady) on the enemy and start pullin the trigger. If your bullets end up slightly behind the helo then start using deflection though that should be a given :)

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I really don't understand the pleasure of fighting the Ka-50 against helos.

To appreciate the fidelity of this simulation one must follow missions for what the Ka-50 was made of. Most of the of the posters are veterans, so it must been you are bored?

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To appreciate the fidelity of this simulation one must follow missions for what the Ka-50 was made of.

 

Doesn't the fact that we have air-to-air modes for the Vikhr's indicate that the Ka-50 was designed to be able to engage in aerial combat? Of course it's not the primary mission, and combat with enemy helicopters should only be undertaken as a last resort, but one of the greatest benefits of simulation is that one can study engagements that rarely occur in real life. Also, note that neither the Mi-24 nor the AH-1 were designed with aerial combat as a primary focus, but these helicopters did participate in combat against eachother during the Iran-Iraq War. Therefore, the potential for combat between helicopters is a battlefield reality, and is about as probable as most of the other engagements that are simulated in this game.

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I really don't understand the pleasure of fighting the Ka-50 against helos.

To appreciate the fidelity of this simulation one must follow missions for what the Ka-50 was made of. Most of the of the posters are veterans, so it must been you are bored?

 

Pleasure plays no Part - Left Alone, those Hinds/Helo's will Club you Right into Next Week...........:chair:

 

 

And then there's GG and his F-15......:P

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I really don't understand the pleasure of fighting the Ka-50 against helos.

To appreciate the fidelity of this simulation one must follow missions for what the Ka-50 was made of. Most of the of the posters are veterans, so it must been you are bored?

 

 

Clearly you have not had the pleasure of an air to air kill with a Kh-25ML from 15km out. Nothing quite like the wait until impact :D

 

http://www.159thgar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1931


Edited by Fudd
The code is probaly in Russian anyway.
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Fudd, hwo do you fire one of those? I've tried so many times but can't get it to fire. I do teh exact same steps as the Vihkr but yeah =( Edit: got it lol nvm

But yeah i stick to guns. Lol IT seems to be a good method :D


Edited by Acefighterpilot

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And then there's GG and his F-15......:P

 

F-15 against Ka-50.. You mean F-15 without weapons right?

Just flying near the Ka makes it fall into vortex..:D

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Clearly you have not had the pleasure of an air to air kill with a Kh-25ML from 15km out. Nothing quite like the wait until impact :D

 

http://www.159thgar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1931

 

Yea nice, but let's face it how much luck do you need to spot a low flying chopper 15 km away?

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F-15 against Ka-50.. You mean F-15 without weapons right?

Just flying near the Ka makes it fall into vortex..:D

There's the standing bet where EtherealN in a Ka-50 has swore that he will shoot down GGTharos flying a F-15 one day. The looser has to do a sex-change operation or something ...

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Yea nice, but let's face it how much luck do you need to spot a low flying chopper 15 km away?

 

I tracked and followed him for about 60-70km.

 

The point is that air to air engagments do happen from time to time. If you employ the right tactics and realize the helo is not meant to be used in a CAP or Intercept role, you can be quite effective.

 

Air to air engagements are the exception, but should not be ruled out.

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I really don't understand the pleasure of fighting the Ka-50 against helos.

To appreciate the fidelity of this simulation one must follow missions for what the Ka-50 was made of. Most of the of the posters are veterans, so it must been you are bored?

 

Hi,

 

it will be a bit OFF, but look at the "Clear Tkvarcheli" mission (sorry if mispell). That situation is definitely not a sortie for a lonely 2-ship attack helo flight - definitely not what they were made for: without any intel info about enemy positions and size, without SEAD, without JTAC control, without FLIR to see thru the forest... well, not a sortie for any kind of ground or air forces but SOCOM guys. This mission is to kill 2 pilots deliberately if you try to fly it first time (this will be IRL-like) and don't know the most of the eny positions after your many attempts. My experience is if I can't spot the Avenger from max Vikhr distance, it's almost only collecting flight time before being shot down if I try to get closer.

If I were IRL with this mission, and if intel had no info (N/A, or something in the briefing) about the threats, I'd say "F... off" and wouldn't take off and enter that valley of death. And, if intel did his homework, I'd have info about the AD in the village, and I'd say "F... off" and wouldn't take off until they get rid of it:yes:. I can imagine this mission for an A-10 or a fast jet with SDB-size guided munition AND with at least 3 JTAC control positions around the village.

 

ON

 

Why it's a problem if someone wants to dogfight another helo? Again, in Clear Tkvarcheli, sometimes a lil-bird-like insurgent helo appears and you have to kill her (although nothing to do with her, own AD does his job).

 

And, what kind of missions were Ka-50s built for? Bastard:) US Navy used F-14s as Bombcats, S-3Bs with LANTIRN pod to find IEDs... New tasks, more tasks, same or lower budget... usual in this world.

 

Imagine air policing, part of an air defence system in some after-9/11 cases (not classic battlefield air defence with Patriots and Tunguskas), in a restricted airspace, for example, during the opening ceremony of the actual Olymic Games. Combat helos? Why not, if that country has only these, with the fighter jets?

 

Oh, and on the right panel I found some underslung load controls. If it is possible to carry loads, then she is built for it, and I want to fly such a mission:).

 

Ch!

За всю историю никто и никогда не сумел завоевать Афганистан. Hикто и никогда

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F-15 against Ka-50.. You mean F-15 without weapons right?

Just flying near the Ka makes it fall into vortex..:D

 

If the F-15 jock spots the helo...

 

... well, and if the helo jock spots the Eagle...

За всю историю никто и никогда не сумел завоевать Афганистан. Hикто и никогда

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Now, once the Helo's are about 14 clicks out, BRIEFLY LOCK and then immediately unlock target. Reason for this is that it enables the Tracking of the Targets without the Laser Lock and attendant warning.

 

Errr, what? Why not just set laser standby to off while tracking? That'd be optical tracking without laser rangefinding. I don't even know if the beam-grid sets off LWRs. I know the rangefinder does but not sure about the grid.

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I really don't understand the pleasure of fighting the Ka-50 against helos.

To appreciate the fidelity of this simulation one must follow missions for what the Ka-50 was made of. Most of the of the posters are veterans, so it must been you are bored?

 

Eh, you're jumping the gun a bit there.

 

Almost all military forces in the world have some variation on the theme "attack helicopter" in service. Therefore, almost any armed conflict between nations would include both sides employing them, meaning any AH pilot has to be able to deal with those chance encounters.

 

Hoping that both choppers will just say "nah, cba" isn't a very safe bet. Besides, if such a chance encounter allows you to down an Apache you'll probably have saved at least 8 friendly armor units from Hellfire death. :)

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If the F-15 jock spots the helo...

 

... well, and if the helo jock spots the Eagle...

 

 

F-15 has like radar? :music_whistling:

 

Why it's a problem if someone wants to dogfight another helo? Again, in Clear Tkvarcheli, sometimes a lil-bird-like insurgent helo appears and you have to kill her (although nothing to do with her, own AD does his job).

 

And, what kind of missions were Ka-50s built for? Bastard:) US Navy used F-14s as Bombcats, S-3Bs with LANTIRN pod to find IEDs... New tasks, more tasks, same or lower budget... usual in this world.

 

Imagine air policing, part of an air defence system in some after-9/11 cases (not classic battlefield air defence with Patriots and Tunguskas), in a restricted airspace, for example, during the opening ceremony of the actual Olymic Games. Combat helos? Why not, if that country has only these, with the fighter jets?

 

Oh, and on the right panel I found some underslung load controls. If it is possible to carry loads, then she is built for it, and I want to fly such a mission:).

 

Ch!

 

Eh, you're jumping the gun a bit there.

 

Almost all military forces in the world have some variation on the theme "attack helicopter" in service. Therefore, almost any armed conflict between nations would include both sides employing them, meaning any AH pilot has to be able to deal with those chance encounters.

 

Hoping that both choppers will just say "nah, cba" isn't a very safe bet. Besides, if such a chance encounter allows you to down an Apache you'll probably have saved at least 8 friendly armor units from Hellfire death. :)

 

Yeah all true..but from here into organized dog fighting.. I'll stick to ground targets for now, if I feel like chopper shooting I'll get into Su-27 and shoot in one mission "arcade-like" :gun_sniper:

 

Out


Edited by asparagin
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Errr, what? Why not just set laser standby to off while tracking?....

 

Not a Good Idea.

 

Run the Track, take Control, do what you Propose and see what happens ;)

Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career?

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Asparagin, you still should train for it though, just like A10 and Su25 pilots will train to use their A2A missiles for self-defence. ;)

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