Helo vs. Helo

[VS461]

F-15 has like radar? :music_whistling:

 

Yeah all true..but from here into organized dog fighting.. I'll stick to ground targets for now, if I feel like chopper shooting I'll get into Su-27 and shoot in one mission "arcade-like" :gun_sniper:

 

Out

 

I was lucky having a conversation with IRL F-15 pilots about chopper hunting. I refer to their 1 vs 1 experience.

 

First, radar often doesn't get the helo if they are well-trained and stuck at the earth.

Second, if the radar finds the helo, missiles often not (doesn't have all AMRAAM launch criteria, and Sidewinder's seeker head doesn't have the helo).

Third, in close dogfight, if doing it in very close distances, like WW2 Spit vs Bf, the helo definitely has advantage, no question; but if the fighter makes attack-run-like maneuvers and makes the next turn from several miles and from the sun, he has to find the camo-painted chopper again, with his Mk 1 Eyeballs.

Fourth, a helo vs fighter close engagement means many afterburner usage from the fighter at low level, while the helo doesn't use max performance and her fuel consumption is roughly normal - so fighter's playtime will decide.

 

So, finding a helo and getting it - not an easy stuff, not arcade-like:no:, against trained helo guys (but AI helos...:D).

 

But, let's be realistic: a successful helo A2A engagement against fighters means not to be found. If things go worse... well, training, playtime, numbers of opponents, possible relays in fighter side, EW environment, AWACS/C4I on one side, on both sides... many factors to take into consideration.

 

And, for the helo vs helo, EtherealN has the point, if an own helo pilot has the chance to get the enemy's, he must know how to do it.

 

Cheers!

 

PS: can't wait FC 2.0:D

Edited December 31, 2009 by VS461

[isoul]

In real life A-A engagements are a rarity for attack helicopters. Thats why most of them have barely a few choices for A-A weapons.

 

The Jet VS Helo fights is even rarer. Almost all A-A kills of modern fighters are aircraft and not helos. Only a few kills have been reported against helos (one is a kill of an Iraqi helo which had just taken off... the kill occured with A-G ordnance). Why is that?

 

The jets has advantages where a helo disadvantages and the reverse. For example, the jet is faster than helo but the last is far more manouverable. Putting yourself (jet pilot) in risk for shooting down a helo is plain stupid! The jet can overshoot quite easily and this would give the more manouverable helo a big advantage to hit the jet. In case a jet pilot attacks a helo (the opposite can hardly happen!), the helo's pilot should avoid it rather than try to engage and get into firing position. In case the jet manages to acquire a lock and launches a missile the helo's chances to evade it are quite high. More or less to shoot down a helo (as someone posted before) isn't something to be proud of... its more like a sign of stupidity for many reasons.

 

In helo vs helo situations I would prefer the gun over the Vikhr. Put the gun to fire straight forward and select HE rounds. Try to attack the enemy helo from the sides or above. Hopefully the helos most sensitive parts(rotors) will take some damage and this will bring it down. The option of shooting down a helo with your Vikhr missiles is, in my opinion, difficult and expensive and so i avoid to even try it.

[VS461]

... More or less to shoot down a helo (as someone posted before) isn't something to be proud of... its more like a sign of stupidity for many reasons...

 

Not stupidity, if the jet pilot's task is to patrol over a no-fly zone (Northern/Southern Watch over Iraq), and to intercept/shoot down any aircraft, whether it's a helo or not. The 2 UH-60 loss by F-15s during Provide Comfort, in 1994 (apart from the sorrowful blue-on-blue): they did their job, cause they believed the helos are Iraqi Hinds...

 

Another example, far from existing battlefields: GAI, in peacetime, in a suspected 9/11 case. Helo or not, someone has to stop her before she reaches the chemical factory...

Edited December 31, 2009 by VS461
grammar

[GGTharos]

In real life A-A engagements are a rarity for attack helicopters. Thats why most of them have barely a few choices for A-A weapons.

 

Correct, obviously.

 

The Jet VS Helo fights is even rarer. Almost all A-A kills of modern fighters are aircraft and not helos. Only a few kills have been reported against helos (one is a kill of an Iraqi helo which had just taken off... the kill occured with A-G ordnance). Why is that?

Because when the attack begun the helo was actually landed. Helos have been often attacked and destroyed, but under-reported. It isn't that glamorous ;)

 

The jets has advantages where a helo disadvantages and the reverse. For example, the jet is faster than helo but the last is far more manouverable. Putting yourself (jet pilot) in risk for shooting down a helo is plain stupid! The jet can overshoot quite easily and this would give the more manouverable helo a big advantage to hit the jet.

Incorrect. Assuming a trained pilot, all he needs to do is pull straight back up, and the helo can do nothing. Already tried and proven. ;)

 

In case a jet pilot attacks a helo (the opposite can hardly happen!), the helo's pilot should avoid it rather than try to engage and get into firing position. In case the jet manages to acquire a lock and launches a missile the helo's chances to evade it are quite high. More or less to shoot down a helo (as someone posted before) isn't something to be proud of... its more like a sign of stupidity for many reasons.

Actually the helos chances are pretty poor once it is sighted. Really poor - well, at least depending on the helo. While helos with very modern equipment exist (MWS sensors, jammers, etc) they are optimized to counter attacks from the ground. While their protective suites should give them some reasonable capability to evade attacks from fighters, those capabilities are like sub-standard.

Helis that do NOT have such facilities (such as, for example, the Ka-50) are pretty much screwed.

 

In helo vs helo situations I would prefer the gun over the Vikhr. Put the gun to fire straight forward and select HE rounds. Try to attack the enemy helo from the sides or above. Hopefully the helos most sensitive parts(rotors) will take some damage and this will bring it down. The option of shooting down a helo with your Vikhr missiles is, in my opinion, difficult and expensive and so i avoid to even try it.

It's more expensive to put yourself in the other guy's gun range, I think, though it works out in LO :)

[isoul]

GG don't forget that a helo radar signature isn't that strong and a lock may not be so easy to obtain cause the heli can fly a few meters above the ground. Apart from that the helo can move in places with a lot of cover(hills,trees) or fly in places where a jet can't manouever that easy(such as slopes or steep hillsides). Making dives(to attack) and steep climbs(to evade) may be a sound tactic but you still risk too much as a fighter pilot just to shoot down a heli. In case your adversary is an Apache armed with decent A-A missiles your chances of being shot at are many even if you follow the tactic you mentioned above. I don't think I am wrong since history record of Jet VS Helo fights are close to 0 till now.

 

On the issue of shooting helos with Vikhr I forgot to mention that I avoid that in game since its difficult to lock and I have 12 Vikhrs max(usually 8). In real life it is by far better to use a missile that to approach a heli at less than 2km.

Edited December 31, 2009 by isoul

[GGTharos]

A helicopter ON the ground was picked up by an F-15E from 50nm away, just because its rotors were spinning.

The two BlackHawks that were shot down in the blue-on-blue were flying low (200') in a valley, were picked up at 40nm by a pair of F-15Cs.

This isn't represented in LO, so you can put your Ka-50 in the notch and get away in that manner.

 

There exist no Apache's with A-A missiles, and they would not point the nose up into me anyway. My chances of being shot are are almost nil.

[isoul]

A helicopter ON the ground was picked up by an F-15E from 50nm away, just because its rotors were spinning.

The two BlackHawks that were shot down in the blue-on-blue were flying low (200') in a valley, were picked up at 40nm by a pair of F-15Cs.

This isn't represented in LO, so you can put your Ka-50 in the notch and get away in that manner.

 

There exist no Apache's with A-A missiles, and they would not point the nose up into me anyway. My chances of being shot are are almost nil.

 

Oh come on GG, AH-64A was designed with the ability to carry the AIM-92 Stinger (a variant of the man portable FIM-92 Stinger), just Google it. There is even a debate if the Apache should carry AIM-9L Sidewinders instead of Stingers cause the later is less lethal mostly due to its size(the size makes it ideal for Helicopters). Now the fact that AH-64 rarely carries AA missiles is just because aerial threats rarelly appear for the Apache. And if it does,as Wizz said earlier, the outcome can not be judged in advance.

 

From the way you are talking I presume you are a real life pilot of a fighter plane or a helicopter or even both. The Stingers are part of AH-64 armament ,someone who knows better than both of us thought that for some reason[thats a fact] and they rarely carry them because aerial encounters for attack helis rarely occur[thats also a fact]. To down a jet fighter with a Stinger launched from an Apache may sound weird but would someone risk it? Equally weird sounded that a F-117 would be shot down but in Serbia it happened... How can you be so sure?

 

EDIT : Actually there are claims that a Mi-24 downed a F-4 Phantom II during the Iran/Iraq war using an AT-6 Spiral missile. Personally that is hard to believe but still the fact that a pilot must go "Low and Slow" and expose himself to AAA and SAMS doesn't worth the effort of downing a heli...

 

Thats all I can say... I won't keep up cause I think its tiring for the rest of the people.

Edited December 31, 2009 by isoul

[GGTharos]

Oh come on GG, AH-64A was designed with the ability to carry the AIM-92 Stinger (a variant of the man portable FIM-92 Stinger), just Google it. There is even a debate if the Apache should carry AIM-9L Sidewinders instead of Stingers cause the later is less lethal mostly due to its size(the size makes it ideal for Helicopters). Now the fact that AH-64 rarely carries AA missiles is just because aerial threats rarelly appear for the Apache. And if it does,as Wizz said earlier, the outcome can not be judged in advance.

 

There is no debate. The AH-64 does NOT carry AAMs. It is not even wired for it. The ones that were experimented with were they only ones, period. Search this forum and you'll find AlphaOneSix's posts on the matter - he used to work on the thing.

 

From the way you are talking I presume you are a real life pilot of a fighter plane or a helicopter or even both. The Stingers are part of AH-64 armament ,someone who knows better than both of us thought that for some reason[thats a fact] and they rarely carry them because aerial encounters for attack helis rarely occur[thats also a fact].

Someone who knows better than both of us has already spoken and ... apache's aren't even wired for AAMs.

 

To down a jet fighter with a Stinger launched from an Apache may sound weird but would someone risk it? Equally weird sounded that a F-117 would be shot down but in Serbia it happened... How can you be so sure?

Because they aren't used ... just like that. More over, they cannot be used. AH-64's could be wired to use them, but it would be quite a bit of work and money (and time).

 

If you want to look at a heli that does carry AAMs, a good example would be the Kiowa, the Tiger, or the Marine AH-1.

[VS461]

 

... EDIT : Actually there are claims that a Mi-24 downed a F-4 Phantom II during the Iran/Iraq war using an AT-6 Spiral missile. Personally that is hard to believe but still the fact that a pilot must go "Low and Slow" and expose himself to AAA and SAMS doesn't worth the effort of downing a heli...

 

Thats all I can say... I won't keep up cause I think its tiring for the rest of the people.

 

Iraqis had Mi-25s which are Mi-24D export variants, and don't carry AT-6s but AT-2 Swatters. These ATGMs are far subsonic, and, although AT-2 has A2A capability according to the manufacturer, it is definitely only for slow moving/hovering, 10x elephant-sized targets:). OK, sometimes TOWs can carry some bad surprise...

 

What I want to say is that this is a fake tale in this conditions.

 

If I have to shoot at fighters, I'd prefer guns, think it's enough to scare away a fighter jock who picked at me. but if I can try it with my ATGMs, that means the fast mover still doesn't have an idea about me, so I shouldn't pick at it.

 

One more word for the 5th reply before mine: a rotating screw over a helo can be a juicy reflective surface for Doppler radars if conventional metal alloy built, even in a hover.

 

I think this is not tiring for most guys here (heading for FC 2.0:)), and anyway, the forum flow will determine it:D.

 

By the way: Happy new year to evyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :drunk:

[isoul]

Happy new year to everyone.

 

I wouldn't make another post just to insist on the matter. I just found these photos and it should be enough proof, not that Apache's can carry Stingers(thats the least I care about), but that I am not making things/stories out of my mind. So please take a while and see the images linked below.

 

Check this image. On both the wingtips there are missiles attached.

http://img63.imageshack.us/i/ah64stinger01.jpg/

 

In this image you can see (I didn't have photoshop on this computer or else I would do a zoom-in on the wingtip) better the Stinger missile attached on the wingtip.

http://img192.imageshack.us/i/ah64stinger02.jpg/

 

This is no dummy missile or expiramental Apache or photos before a test flight or what ever.

 

This is one of the AH-64DJP(export version of AH-64D for Japanesse Armed Forces) that were delivered to Japan a few years ago. Japanesse were interested in the ability of the AH-64D to carry A-A missiles and ordered them along with the Stingers. These photos were taken during a show to the public. To be more precise on each wingtip there is room for 2 Stingers. In most Apache photos you can see the mounting points on the wingtips... I could even post a picture of myself posing next to an AH-64 were the mounting point clearly visible but thats not the best thing to do. I was in service in the Army Aviation Brigate of my country, and althought I wasn't neither a pilot nor a technician, people that have flown that bird or repaired it confirmed that the stores on the windtips were designed with AA missile in mind althought my country wasn't interested, at least at that time to use AA missiles on the Apache.

 

I can't say if every army that uses the Apache has all the wiring ready to equip Stingers, some armies aren't even interested on that for sure, but the AH-64D at least is capable of carrying it. I could post a dozen links that refer to the matter but text repots may be inacurrate or fake but these images aren't.

 

End of the matter for me!

Edited January 1, 2010 by isoul

[GGTharos]

I forgot - you are quite correct. There's a couple export models that do carry the stinger. I think it's the British one,a nd the Japanese one as you pointed out.

 

US Apaches do not - they are not wired for'em.

[Hunt3r.j2]

A helicopter ON the ground was picked up by an F-15E from 50nm away, just because its rotors were spinning.

The two BlackHawks that were shot down in the blue-on-blue were flying low (200') in a valley, were picked up at 40nm by a pair of F-15Cs.

This isn't represented in LO, so you can put your Ka-50 in the notch and get away in that manner.

 

There exist no Apache's with A-A missiles, and they would not point the nose up into me anyway. My chances of being shot are are almost nil.

Taiwan is equipping their Apaches with Stingers.

 

What?

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

I was only thinking of US Apaches :P

[isoul]

Iraqis had Mi-25s which are Mi-24D export variants, and don't carry AT-6s but AT-2 Swatters. These ATGMs are far subsonic, and, although AT-2 has A2A capability according to the manufacturer, it is definitely only for slow moving/hovering, 10x elephant-sized targets:). OK, sometimes TOWs can carry some bad surprise...

 

What I want to say is that this is a fake tale in this conditions.

 

 

The incident was stated that an AT-6(9k114 Shtrum) was used which is supersonic (345m/s) but if you are sure about all the facts you are stating above I can't deny it.

 

The incident is probably fake... at leat one thing is for sure

 

In war, truth is the first casualty :smilewink:

 

@GGTharos : We agreed more or less afterall!!!

Edited January 1, 2010 by isoul

[Wizz]

The incident was stated that an AT-6(9k114 Shtrum) was used which is supersonic (345m/s) but if you are sure about all the facts you are stating above I can't deny it.

 

CAPT Miller (Tom Hanks) destroyed a Tiger Tank with just a pistol! :)

[isoul]

CAPT Miller (Tom Hanks) destroyed a Tiger Tank with just a pistol! :)

 

Tho Hollywood's pistols are famous for their anti-tank and anti-air capabilities. They are known as KAAAS(Kick-Ass-All-Around-Sidearms) in the military circles but due to its lethality UN restricted its use only to Hollywood!!!

[VS461]

Hi,

 

just found another A2A equipped helo:

 

 

with her Iglas / Strelas (can't figure out), the pilot can get either Maverick and Goose:D

 

I heard a story that in a country, far, far away, they equipped their Mi-24s with Iglas in DIY way: they, let's say, Duct-taped the missiles to the wingtips, and wired the missiles' control to the cargo bay with some "red button", and the flight technician's duty was to launch if he saw that the helo's noise was pointing at the target... Creativity iz evything:D

 

Cheers!

[159th_Viper]

 

 

 

 

You sure that's not the SHTURM-ATAKA MWS? Herewith a Pic of the Strelets system that is mounted on Helo's for the Igla/Igla-S.

 

 

 

 

http://kbm.ru/en/product/manpads/strelets

[MBot]

On this subject, here is some fun trivia:

 

On 14 May 1969, a US Army AH-1G engaged a NVAF MiG-21 over South Vietnam. The Cobra was working in the A Shau Valley when a "Bandit" call came up on the guard frequency. Cobra Commander Len Constantine spotted the MiG (most likely a single one on a recce run) flying up the valley and immediately engaged with his 7.62 mm minigun as it passed them, most likely scoring hits. The Cobra quickly spun around and fired 2.75 FFAR after the MiG, two of which almost hit. At this point the MiG started to bobble it's wings, lit the afterburner and climbed away.

 

Source: US Army AH-1 Cobra Units in Vietnam, Osprey Combat Aircraft series.

Edited January 1, 2010 by MBot

[VS461]

You sure that's not the SHTURM-ATAKA MWS? Herewith a Pic of the Strelets system that is mounted on Helo's for the Igla/Igla-S....

 

The four OD green tubes are Sturm or Ataka launchers (and compare the ø 80 mm B8V-20 tubes with them, Sturms are ø 130 mm). Below the wingtips, they are Iglas (ø 72 mm).

 

What I've just spotted (LOL, I uploaded this:doh:), and can't figure out, is that thing under the inner starboard pylon.

[Frederf]

CAPT Miller (Tom Hanks) destroyed a Tiger Tank with just a pistol! :)

 

The tank was destroyed by a P-51 in the ground attack role. It just happened to coincide with his shot. Miller and the audience are supposed to go through the realization together as the plane flies over.

[isoul]

Damn! Poor CAPT Miller wasn't armed with a KAAAS pistol? He survived the tank by coincidence? Bad, bad Hollywood...

[EtherealN]

Hi,

 

just found another A2A equipped helo:

 

Note that that is a US-operated Mi-24 (probably used as an OPFOR helicopter in training - note how it lacks insignia). They captured a good few of them from Iraq, and I think they also bought a few from ex-WP now-NATO countries.

 

So that is most likely not standard equipment. ;)

[RodrigoMF_BR]

Use AAM at helicopters and low performance fix wing aircraft it´s much controversial.

 

Brazilian made some trials to equip Super Tucano with AAM...

 

The results was:

 

The low speed launch, decreased to much the AAM Max Range.

 

If this happen with a 350mph cruise speed craft...

 

Imagine this situation with a 130kt max speed aircraft.

[power5]

A10 is low speed and carries (2) aim9 on just about every flight I thought.