I feel there is some misinformation about BS controls

[DaveRindner]

I am experiencing, some differences, between docs, KA-50 data, and actual in-sim experience. I use X52 Pro, with stick rudder.

 

1. Common Wisdom. Contra-Rotating rotors are naturally stable requiring no torgue input to hold heading.

 

My exp. Not so. The helicopter cannot hold stable heading, even into wind, by itself. It always wants to rotate counter-clockwise about itself. Requiring significant pedal deflection to hold heading. The stick is centered and working correctly.

 

2. Common Wisdom. KA-50 has very fast and responsive spot turn performance, and heading change. Fast turn to target.

 

My exp. Not so. Helicopters has very fast pitch and bank but very sluggish rudder. It is very slow to turn to target. Also it is impossible, and I have been trying for 4 months, to do a stable spot turn. The helo will drift right , left, or backwards, or combination of the tree. After completion of the spot turn.

 

3.Common Wisdom. Cyclic trim helps the pilot.

My exp. It is unpredictable. Sometimes it works, othertimes it does not. The slower the speed the more unpredictable it is. Also disengaging trim, cause strong pitch up, before forward cyclic pressure is enough to stabilize pitch. The fact that ED added two types of cyclic pitch just confuses things even more. IMHO poor implementation. Very confusing, and poorly explained.

 

4. Common Wisdom. Contra-Rotating rotors are resistant to settling with power.

My exp. In this sim, settling is very easy to get info. At low altitude, (i.e. shaded area of diagram), there is no solution to prevent crash. The solution is cyclic down, pitch down to get fresh air into the rotors.

 

5. EEG will keep rotors turning at proper rate.

 

My exp. Is mixed. They work most of the time. EEG and hovering. All to often the governors fail to keep rotors when in stable hover, causing the helicopter to settle without control. I also experience EEG fail to keep rotor rpm when flying backwards, even modestrly. Same for steep banks. Rotor rpm goes below 800 rpm, and EEG limiter lights turn on.

 

6. Vne. The helicopter is suppoused to be able to go above 300 kph, without RBS, or disk intersection

 

My exp. 250(ish) is the Vne in the sim. Above 250 Vne warning screams at me.

 

 

Finally. I am not certain which stick is best for BS, but I am certain that Saitek X52 Pro is a poor choice.

[Boulund]

I'm not sure I agree with you. I've flown Black Shark with both a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro joystick and for the last half year with a X52 Pro.

 

1. The helicopter is actually really stable by itself and requires very little, if any, pedal input to hold heading - of course it is somewhat sensitive to wind but that's how it works.

 

2. AMAZING turn performance imo, both left and right. Especially during pedal input at high forward speeds.

 

3. Your description sounds like bad practice on your part. I must say that the trim system (trims not only cyclic but also pedals, plus that it directs the auto-pilots to what attitude, altitude and heading you want to hold) is very good - even with my Extreme 3D Pro or X52 Pro I'm having no trouble at all. Remember to use Right Ctrl+Enter to see where you trimmed your controls?

 

4. Not sure about this one, but it wouldn't seem very strange that it can experience VRS because of the design, it's kind of inherent to this rotors-on-top design ;). The solution isn't the best but never get into it at low altitude and then you're fine =)

 

5. During a hover you stress the engines a lot more than during normal flight, it's more a helicopter design problem that the EEG's can't maintain rotor RPM, rather than some fault with the simulator. But I'm not sure on this one. It would be interesting to know what data you're referring to?

 

6. With proper handling the Black Shark can go a lot faster than 300 kph without rotor disc intersection. I feel that maybe Vne should be set at something around 320 kph. This is most definitely a handling issue on your part. I'm sure several others with me can agree on that. Avoid right rudder during high speed flight and make sure to always give her the smooth treatment. Also this is dependant on the weather conditions during flight.

 

On your stick note, I'm sure X52 Pro is not the best choice, but in my opinion it is a very good HOTAS for this simulator.

Hopefully someone else will come and join me to help you tackle the issues you are experiencing.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Boulund

[Panzertard]

A common misconception is how the new trimmer works - and how the dampener channels work.

But if you do get those right, you'll come a long way of getting a very stable and nimble weapons platform.

 

So if you go ahead and set up with the "old" trim style in the config, it may help.

- Then, add the 3 dampeners channels - and wait a bit to learn the Flight Director (FD).

 

Then as you fly, do the following;

- If you plan to change attitude (speed, heading, etc), HOLD the trim down.

- Initiate attitude change.

- Stabilize your new attitude.

- Release Trim.

 

When this method is second nature you will also find that you're no longer have much problems keeping it stable in flight, transitions or hover.

 

EDIT; And be sure to always use RCTRL+ENTER to know how your cyclic / trim looks.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Panzertard

[EvilBivol-1]

When we were testing Black Shark, I had made a post on the beta forum about how many Ka-50 and co-axial rotor legends DCS was going to decimate.

 

Success.

[slug88]

Sorry mate, but I disagree with just about all your points :).

 

1. Common Wisdom. Contra-Rotating rotors are naturally stable requiring no torgue input to hold heading.

 

My exp. Not so. The helicopter cannot hold stable heading, even into wind, by itself. It always wants to rotate counter-clockwise about itself. Requiring significant pedal deflection to hold heading. The stick is centered and working correctly.

 

 

Are you talking about hover, or forward flight? Forward flight indeed requires constant right rudder pressure due to the somewhat asymmetric nature of the rotor assembly (the upper disk has better leverage at rolling the helicopter due to being further from the center of mass, and the lower disk is sucking in turbulent airflow from the upper disk). In a hover, though, this is completely false. If you're experiencing uncommanded yaw in a hover, it's almost certainly due to the AP. Learn how the AP works and why it does what it does, and it will make flying 1000% easier and more predictable.

 

 

 

2. Common Wisdom. KA-50 has very fast and responsive spot turn performance, and heading change. Fast turn to target.

 

My exp. Not so. Helicopters has very fast pitch and bank but very sluggish rudder. It is very slow to turn to target. Also it is impossible, and I have been trying for 4 months, to do a stable spot turn. The helo will drift right , left, or backwards, or combination of the tree. After completion of the spot turn.

 

 

The low yaw rate is, again, almost certainly due to misuse of and/or misunderstanding of how the AP works. A very high yaw rate is achievable in this helicopter.

 

 

3.Common Wisdom. Cyclic trim helps the pilot.

My exp. It is unpredictable. Sometimes it works, othertimes it does not. The slower the speed the more unpredictable it is. Also disengaging trim, cause strong pitch up, before forward cyclic pressure is enough to stabilize pitch. The fact that ED added two types of cyclic pitch just confuses things even more. IMHO poor implementation. Very confusing, and poorly explained.

 

 

Read the newbie faq on this forum regarding how the trim works. The most important thing to realize is that the trimmer controls not only the neutral state of the cyclic stick, but also serves as an input to the AP. Understanding how this works is absolutely critical to controlled and stable flight. Once you master the Ka-50's trim and AP systems, however, she becomes very responsive, very predictable, and overall very easy to fly.

 

By "disengaging trim" I assume you mean hitting the Trim Reset button. IMHO, and many/most here would agree with me, this button should never be pressed in flight, and in fact the real life Ka-50 doesn't even have such a function. It's expected and normal that it would cause a dramatic pitch up if you engage it during flight. That's why you don't engage it during flight.

 

Regarding the two types of trimmer implementations, I actually applaud ED for giving us a choice, and I believe most here would agree that it works well once you get the hang of it. Furthermore, for users without a FFB stick, there really isn't any better way of implementing trim as it exists on the Ka-50. If you disagree, I'm sure ED would be very happy to hear your idea of how to do it better. Regarding the poor documentation of the two trimmer methods, I agree, I can see how new users might be confused about the option.

 

 

4. Common Wisdom. Contra-Rotating rotors are resistant to settling with power.

My exp. In this sim, settling is very easy to get info. At low altitude, (i.e. shaded area of diagram), there is no solution to prevent crash. The solution is cyclic down, pitch down to get fresh air into the rotors.

 

 

I agree that it is rather easy to settle with power. Not sure if it's overmodelled or not, so I won't comment on that. I will say, however, that in my early days with this sim I got lots of practice in recovering, and by now I can even when it begins at very low altitudes. I won't give an exact figure, since it's been a while and I'm usually not writing down my altitude when it's happening, but I'd estimate that I can easily recover at 50m AGL, and can probably do so consistently at ~30m AGL.

 

 

5. EEG will keep rotors turning at proper rate.

 

My exp. Is mixed. They work most of the time. EEG and hovering. All to often the governors fail to keep rotors when in stable hover, causing the helicopter to settle without control. I also experience EEG fail to keep rotor rpm when flying backwards, even modestrly. Same for steep banks. Rotor rpm goes below 800 rpm, and EEG limiter lights turn on.

 

 

Well, the engines can only produce so much power. Of course there will be many situations in which you lose RPM, ranging from thin air, to very hard banks at high speed, and, importantly, this is especially true when carrying a full combat payload. Not sure why you'd expect the EEG to maintain rotor RPM through all regimes.

 

Haven't experienced RPM loss from flying backwards, however I admit that I very rarely do so, and almost never at >20-30kmh.

 

 

6. Vne. The helicopter is suppoused to be able to go above 300 kph, without RBS, or disk intersection

 

My exp. 250(ish) is the Vne in the sim. Above 250 Vne warning screams at me.

 

 

Depends very much on your weight, altitude, ambient air temp & pressure, and perhaps other factors I'm missing. However, in multi player games where flight times are short and fuel is abundant, I regularly cruise at 280kmh+ IAS, and can usually break 300kmh without getting a Vne warning. This is at altitudes usually below 500m ASL.

 

Finally. I am not certain which stick is best for BS, but I am certain that Saitek X52 Pro is a poor choice.

 

Here is where I very strongly disagree. I am using an X-52 PRo, and have always found it wonderfully smooth and precise. What problems have you had with the stick?

[EtherealN]

5. EEG will keep rotors turning at proper rate.

 

My exp. Is mixed. They work most of the time. EEG and hovering. All to often the governors fail to keep rotors when in stable hover, causing the helicopter to settle without control. I also experience EEG fail to keep rotor rpm when flying backwards, even modestrly. Same for steep banks. Rotor rpm goes below 800 rpm, and EEG limiter lights turn on.

 

Sounds like you either do not have the throttles on auto, or is judging the normal operation of the EEG based on very extreme maneuvers. I have no issues with my rotor RPM in any regime except in the case of extremely strong maneuvers of the "let's commit suicide" type.

 

6. Vne. The helicopter is suppoused to be able to go above 300 kph, without RBS, or disk intersection

 

My exp. 250(ish) is the Vne in the sim. Above 250 Vne warning screams at me.

 

I routinely fly at 300km/h without issues or alarms. However, it is highly dependant on air temperature, altitude (that is, air density) and such factors. Refer to the plaque on the left side of your cockpit, behind the door. In some cases your vNE is 305km/h, in others it's as low as 95km/h.

[Frederf]

1. Contra-rotating rotors have a low net torque but it isn't zero. Because one is on top and the other is below means that at a hover there is some asymmetry. When moving the fact that they rotate in different directions makes the asymmetry worse. It's pretty close to a conventional helicopter in pedal requirements.

 

2. The heading stabilization channel purposefully reduces yaw authority and violence to make the pilot's job easier. There are some theoretical physical benefits to the Ka-50's design by being smaller and shorter but those are rarely realized.

 

3. There is no such thing as "disengaging trim." Trim is an action. Confusing and poorly documented? Perhaps. Poorly implemented? Hardly. Two types of cyclic pitch? What?

 

4. I never heard contra-rotating to help avoid VRS. I would imagine VRS would be equal to or even slightly worse in the Ka-50 compared with conventional. The wiki article says otherwise which could very well be true. You'd have to compare the Ka-50 against its exact conventional design equivalent to be absolutely sure. The Ka-50 is not immune from VRS by any stretch.

 

5. EEG is actually a collection of no fewer than 5 regulators that restrict fuel to prevent excess engine temperature or speed. It is the automatic throttle system that attempts to keep rotor RPM in the normal range of 83% to 97%. If collective is added that is too great and the engine cannot produce the power then RPM reduction is inevitable. There is nothing magic about the system that allows breaking the laws of nature.

 

6. Max speed is calculated dynamically. Vne is the book-published maximum value that should ever be achieved. Notice how the dynamic max speed system changes based on altitude. The speed limit may be 65 mph on the freeway but not if it's snowing!

 

I use an X-45 and I like it. I imagine an X-52 is probably a very good stick for the job. It has a good button correlation ratio with the actual controls on the Ka-50.

[AlphaOneSix]

Rotor rpm goes below 800 rpm

 

Where on that gauge does it say x10? The rotor never gets anywhere near 800 rpm. The rotor speed gauge is in %, so "80" is "80%".

 

Nothing much to add to what people are already saying, though.

[gumball360]

A common misconception is how the new trimmer works - and how the dampener channels work.

But if you do get those right, you'll come a long way of getting a very stable and nimble weapons platform.

 

So if you go ahead and set up with the "old" trim style in the config, it may help.

- Then, add the 3 dampeners channels - and wait a bit to learn the Flight Director (FD).

 

Then as you fly, do the following;

- If you plan to change attitude (speed, heading, etc), HOLD the trim down.

- Initiate attitude change.

- Stabilize your new attitude.

- Release Trim.

 

When this method is second nature you will also find that you're no longer have much problems keeping it stable in flight, transitions or hover.

 

EDIT; And be sure to always use RCTRL+ENTER to know how your cyclic / trim looks.

 

So there's a new and old type of trim? When I trim, I change position, heading, etc. and then press the trim button. Am I doing this properly? Or do I need to hold it the whole time?

 

Or does it work both ways depending on what's set in the config file?

 

 

*Sigh* I love DCS... :smilewink:

[CptKanito]

Yer,

 

Hold trim down, move the controls to whichever position you want to trim to then release trim. That should then be the center point for the rest of your actions. Make sure you center the joystick in real life as soon as you release the trim, so you don't "tent-peg" the ground. :)

[Panzertard]

So there's a new and old type of trim? When I trim, I change position, heading, etc. and then press the trim button. Am I doing this properly? Or do I need to hold it the whole time?

 

Or does it work both ways depending on what's set in the config file?

 

 

*Sigh* I love DCS... :smilewink:

Yes, you hold it all the time - you hear the "click" when you press it. Manouver your shark. Another "Click" when you release.

Thats why many of us have assigned the trimmer to a button on our joysticks - so we can hold it down while moving the stick.

I've got mine assigned to the "Pinky" on the x52 Pro.

 

And of course the RCTRL-ENTER controls indicator which tells you if trim is somewhat off center now and then due to misalignment.

 

Two of the most important tools in DCS ;)

[gumball360]

Yer,

 

Hold trim down, move the controls to whichever position you want to trim to then release trim. That should then be the center point for the rest of your actions. Make sure you center the joystick in real life as soon as you release the trim, so you don't "tent-peg" the ground. :)

 

Thanks, but I've gotten it to work by just pressing the button after moving the controls. At least I think :huh:

 

Can anymore be explained?

 

EDIT: Oh, thanks Panzertard, didn't see your post. But I still experience what I just said. Meaning that I can tilt the cyclic all the way to the side, press the trim button, and it stays there. I didn't have to hold anything down...

Edited January 8, 2010 by gumball360

[Panzertard]

Thanks, but I've gotten it to work by just pressing the button after moving the controls. At least I think... :huh:

 

Can anymore be explained?

That causes some wild jittering, yes. ;)

[gumball360]

Oh well. I guess I'll just hold it down from now on. Don't want to be lazy! :thumbup:

[slug88]

gumball, do whatever works for you. Many pilots, including myself, have found that smoother flight is achieved with the hold-and-trim method. However, that's not necessarily the "right" way to do it. Try out both methods and stick to whichever gives you the best result :).

[DaveRindner]

Well, that has not been so for me.

 

Something is not making sense here.

 

Situation.

Helicopter is at near hover speed , heading towards the enemy.

I depress the engage trimmer, align the helo, release trimmer, re-center the stick. Immediately the helo banks and yaws (slowly), and pitches up, and begins to drift/fly backwards.

 

Situation:

Yaw. SLOW!. I cant say it simpler. At times, I would be at near zero speed, rudder at half deflection to prevent right yaw, and hold heading. Full rudder deflection will not cause left yaw or it would be very very slow yaw. Why?

 

Other strange situation

 

Front gear will , by itself, turn fully to the left, and lock itself in that position. Full right deflection of rudder will not bring it straight. So as soon as wheel break is released the helo will start to want to go in circles, while on the ground.

[Shaman]

Front gear will , by itself, turn fully to the left, and lock itself in that position. Full right deflection of rudder will not bring it straight. So as soon as wheel break is released the helo will start to want to go in circles, while on the ground.

 

Front wheel is not controlled by rudder. It is loose and if you want to straighten it then you need to move forward a bit (apply forward cyclic).

 

Post track for other two situations - unless someone understands what you mean without them

 

...maybe you forget to disable autohover when performing maneuvers, or use autohover without getting into stable hover first by yourself? anyway you are doing something wrong here :o post track

Edited January 8, 2010 by Shaman

[isoul]

According to my experience :

 

Trim&AP channels : Practise with trimming, read the new and old way of trimming and decide whats best for you. I prefer the new one. When you are somewhat familiar with the Trimming(it isn't that difficult) you should learn the way the AP works/affects the helicopter.

1) Disable all AP channels and try to fly the Ka-50.

2) Enable AP channels and use Flight Director to see how the control dumbing affects the helicopter

3) Once familiar with this and in conjuction with your trimming skills you may deactivate Flight Director and you will eventually get used to flying it quite precissely.

 

REMEMBER Trim & AP channels(even ALT HOLD) are USEFULL and makes your work easier!

 

On the X52 Stick... I use it too. In my opinion the X52 is a bit light-weight and if set to default its quite sensitive and the flight of the Ka-50 becomes aggressive. Once lowering the sensitivity of the control I could do all the smooth handling required to fly the Shark.

[159th_Viper]

Something is not making sense here.

 

Situation.

Helicopter is at near hover speed , heading towards the enemy.

I depress the engage trimmer, align the helo, release trimmer, re-center the stick. Immediately the helo banks and yaws (slowly), and pitches up, and begins to drift/fly backwards.

 

Situation:

Yaw. SLOW!. I cant say it simpler. At times, I would be at near zero speed, rudder at half deflection to prevent right yaw, and hold heading. Full rudder deflection will not cause left yaw or it would be very very slow yaw. Why?

 

Other strange situation

 

Front gear will , by itself, turn fully to the left, and lock itself in that position. Full right deflection of rudder will not bring it straight. So as soon as wheel break is released the helo will start to want to go in circles, while on the ground.

 

Post a Track illustrating the above - Will be able to assist further/proffer explanations for your 'Strange' Behaviour :)

[Frederf]

Yeah the front gear is free castering like an office chair. Seeing a track of how you fly would answer a lot of questions.

 

If you trim in a lot of right rudder then it takes left rudder pressure just to get back to neutral. Bring up the RCtrl+Enter display to watch what your flight controls are really doing.

[Bucic]

Controls position display is great but since there is so much confusion among noobs regarding trimming why don't ED include the trim button position indicator on the display? This way one would watch a track from a single mission and he would know 90% of trimmer usage right away.

[Frederf]

Well it makes a pretty loud sound, right?

[J3ff]

To me, being able to adapt to your enviroment you are presented with, is a great accomplisment. I liked the old trim, I got used to that, I understood and understand that this is a PC SIMULATION. I can work with both old and new trim style because I took time to learn it instead of saying it is not right, because to argue, is pointless on a PC. If it was a real situation, of course it matters :) You can post statistics and all that, and complain all you want, if you can program better, please do so and apply to the software companies. :)

 

Again this is not a rant or gripe or flaming, just a observation. IF there is another flight sim out there that is perfect, please give me a link to it:) (Military excluded) (or any commercial airline personnel) :doh:

 

War is full of mis-information. If you are military you can not simply complain about bad intel heh.

 

For me, being a PC based product flight sim, this simulation has far exceeded my expectations and posed(SP) many challenges, which makes me a better "flight sim" pilot. There are gripes I have or had with this product, but I have learned to work around it.:D

 

I have the x52 and can not complain it is not working. It rocks. Each person has a different experince though, hope all works for you soon:)

 

Oh edit, I dont hold the trim down when I am making a course change, but when I am doing a evasive maneuver, heck yea the trim is held down until I am done doing evasive maneuvers lol. My balls might be off centered on the gauges, but the shark is still flying and in one piece heh.

Edited January 9, 2010 by DJ_J3ff

[Bucic]

Well it makes a pretty loud sound, right?

 

You mean the trimming action? Pressing and depressing? If so, I'm sorry. It's been a while since I played BS. I've just watched Producer's Note #10 - Trim and I don't hear anything related to trim. Waggs has to say when he presses the trim button.

[Distiler]

You mean the trimming action? Pressing and depressing? If so, I'm sorry. It's been a while since I played BS. I've just watched Producer's Note #10 - Trim and I don't hear anything related to trim. Waggs has to say when he presses the trim button.

 

1.01 patch introduced the sound.