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Is there any work being done on DCS BS?


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[...]I've already invested into FC/DCS more them most of the forum members here. Yesterday, I've paid 120 USD for domain/server hosting devoted to FC/DCS support and advertising, on top of all previous investments, TeamSpeak, giving away FC and DCS as gifts (which I have paid for!), workhours invested...

Forget assuming, less alone calling me cheap :mad:

 

I can live with less visual quality and without button covers, if the AI were any smarter and if damage models were properly modeled.[...]

 

BTW, market value for localization like DCS:BS is around 1000 EUR. Will YOU invest 1000 EUR into ED?

 

1) Aviation is especially expensive hobby, even in it's digital form. "Only for eagles"... And no, I'm not particularly rich, just dedicated.

 

2) Simulation will always be only simulation. Want 100% realism => join air force. Remember though, that real pilots gave Black Shark generally positive feedback and that means something! I've tried enough sims to be able to recognise high quality and I will always support one, even if it's not about my most favourite aircraft (although not many of these ;)). Also I'm confident, that it will improve even more with every subsequent module.

 

3) Black Shark is available in English, "aviation's main language", alright. Most interesting reading resources are in this language anyway. You may say, that's not the problem for me, because I speak it. True, but it's not my mother tongue and I've learned it just because I used computer and early sims. I've never attended any course and lessons we had at school were laugh all the way. To be honest, I hate when a game/sim doesn't have English version, as it's one less occassion for me to improve my language skills. I respect and encourage your localization efforts, but being a kind of part time low scale developer myself, I think you need more patience and understanding.

 

 

because its rotors were spinning, and the weather wasn't so good either ;) You have the advantage of your rotors not being modeled this way, so you may enter the notch. But ... ground clutter? That has mainly been a non-issue for modern interceptors since - er well, a while now.

 

I know about spinning rotors. But what about missile's radar - would it take advantage of it and won't be bothered by ground clutter?

 

Also about that alternating flight direction, altitude and speed. The idea is to present some random returns from an area, rather than a series of "knots on a straight rope", to make it harder for radar to interpret these returns as a one and same target. Would it work like that in RL/DCS?

 

 

Yes, I like the visuals - this is a good deal because you won't end up with people seeing the 'shark as a dot from 20km away and just toss a missile its way.
A little offtop here, but I think it's interesting. I've painted my Spitfire in Sturmovik in some nice camouflages, among them was all PRU Blue scheme. I've observed, that in this case, the plane's dot dissappeared with increased distance about twice as fast, as with other camouflages, when put against blue sky. Opposite was true for planes seen agains terrain. PRU Pink at the right time of cloudy day is another story ;)

 

The US has always had some anti-IR missile protection on their helis in one form or another.
Yes, the famous "disco lights". I love this part of equipment ;) Recently I've read and watched about even more advanced design being developed, which works on a pronciple of a laser beam being precisely directed to the threat, to blind it more effectively. Amazing!

 

That is the ticket to survival ;)
Sure, if only MANPADS weren't shooting at me through 1000m of forest ;) I hope that this will be addressed, as well as adding collisions with trees, in future paths/modules. But even now I enjoy stalking Stingers & Co. with a gun.

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Originally Posted by Death-17

Any yahoo can fly fixed, it takes skill to fly rotor.

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I know about spinning rotors. But what about missile's radar - would it take advantage of it and won't be bothered by ground clutter?

 

It's no different than a plane's radar in some respects - just smaller (there are capabilities it may not have due to its size but doppler discrimination is not among those)

 

Also about that alternating flight direction, altitude and speed. The idea is to present some random returns from an area, rather than a series of "knots on a straight rope", to make it harder for radar to interpret these returns as a one and same target. Would it work like that in RL/DCS?

 

A radar will simply present the hit (the blip) when it sees you. In RL you'll never fall off the radar, as far as I can tell, while in DCS you can still notch and vanish (and possibly the fighter will lose interest). Random flight paths won't help you much, you're going so slow that it isn't going to make a difference as long as you're on the screen. My suggestion is a slow approach to target with a lot of flying that's in the notch to the main threat axis.

 

A little offtop here, but I think it's interesting. I've painted my Spitfire in Sturmovik in some nice camouflages, among them was all PRU Blue scheme. I've observed, that in this case, the plane's dot dissappeared with increased distance about twice as fast, as with other camouflages, when put against blue sky. Opposite was true for planes seen agains terrain. PRU Pink at the right time of cloudy day is another story ;)

 

Haha, nice :D

 

Yes, the famous "disco lights". I love this part of equipment ;) Recently I've read and watched about even more advanced design being developed, which works on a pronciple of a laser beam being precisely directed to the threat, to blind it more effectively. Amazing!

 

Yes, the disco ball is retired, lasers FTW - I take it you're talking about the youtube video for a demonstration :)

 

[qquote]Sure, if only MANPADS weren't shooting at me through 1000m of forest ;) I hope that this will be addressed, as well as adding collisions with trees, in future paths/modules. But even now I enjoy stalking Stingers & Co. with a gun.

 

Yes, but not any time soon I think - the burden here is on your mission creator to not pull stuff like this. Personally I don't let MANPADS spawn until you get yourself into position, unless they're 'noobs' and they're just running around everywhere with the tube. Otherwise, they spawn via trigger when you fly into the trap :D

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Only one way actually exists in how to deal with fighters and that is concealment! Avoid detection by keeping an obstacle between you and your hunter.

 

Don't make me write huge post for backing up my argument!

...

 

@ GGTharros

 

Back there I was, initially, carried over and wrote a quite large post which, when I saw it, was intimidating for people to read so I deleted most of it. Thx for posting some arguments on that though.

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In the Notch

 

First of let me be very clear. I way way WAY prefer helos over a2a jets or bombers. That being said I truly do beleive even IF you saw an A2A aircraft beading down on you your pretty much screwed. No helo is designed to fight jet targets. All helo's are disigned for ground. Even IF they have a2a missles those are for defense only or for other helo's.I will admit I don't know all the ins and outs of radar. These are my counterpoints. However, as stated, my knowledge is limited about radar and I may be way off track here. Does'nt radar have problems at low altitude (ie flying UNDER the radar). And don't helo's fly very low? I know I do when I fly, unless im about to search for a target. Even then, its pop up fire get low again I am sure when they do include air to air they will add a communication aspect tied to AI. For instance you may hear on the radio that a2a was spotted and x,y coordinates at z altitude. You know like AI ground radar feeding you info. One more thing can someone please explain to me what flying in the notch is????

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You can fly 'under' the radar coverage of many surface based systems as the further away from the radar emitter you get the further from the ground it's detection area gets due to the curvature of the earth and the terrain.

 

Airborne systems don't have this issue, because they are looking down on the ground. Of course this means that airborne radar systems have to deal with ground clutter, this is why most airborne radars are Doppler systems. Instead of just detecting a reflected radar pulse, they use the doppler effect to detect only moving targets (the speed above which they display a target varies depending on the system). If you want to read more about it just google, loads of info out there

 

Flying the notch refers to the Doppler Notch technique, which involves flying a curved flight path to keep a constant distance between you and the specific radar emitter you are trying to fool. See image.

 

It is a difficult manoeuvre to get right, but, it can and does work. I've used it to great effect many times in a last ditch effort to defeat an inbound missile in Falcon. Of course for it to have any chance of working, you need to know exactly where the threat emitter is in relation to your aircraft, and given the lack of any RWR or other ESM system in the Ka-50, that could prove a tad difficult.

Notch.jpg.38d943d82efd8f994913addfae2bfea3.jpg


Edited by Eddie

 

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^^^^

 

The notch is based on closure, and fighters are fast: this is why you want to fly perpendicular to the threat radar. A helicopter travels slow enough that if you pick your approach carefully, and you take care to fly slow, you won't show up on the radar (note that this is NOT realistic, as a heli's rotors could never hide from radar but that's the way it is in FC2).

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... That being said I truly do beleive even IF you saw an A2A aircraft beading down on you your pretty much screwed. No helo is designed to fight jet targets. All helo's are disigned for ground. Even IF they have a2a missles those are for defense only or for other helo's.I will admit I don't know all the ins and outs of radar. These are my counterpoints...

 

The basic error done by many of us is that we think of helicopters as air assets! The fact that most attack helicopters are under ground force's command should say something!

 

The helicopter is very different than fixed wing in almost all aspects. The kind of missions it undertakes, the way the mission are flown(altitude, target area approach etc.) makes it quite unique. So, treating a helicopter as a fixed wing aircraft is wrong! Even if the helo carries A2A missiles its for self defense... the only reason that helos may carry A2A missiles is to make fighter pilots think twice before they attack(this is for short range missiles since at medium to long ranges the helo is helpless).

 

The best and only defense of a Ka-50 against fighters is concealment. In case a helicopter pilot makes himself visible to a fighter that flies in the immediate area the only thing he may hope for is that the aircraft has something better to do instead of engage him.

 

As someone with knowledge about helicopter tactics put it... "When someone thinks of an attack helicopter's capabilities he must consider it as a fast moving, highly agile, all terrain (ground)vehicle that carries a wide range of weapons but never think of it as a typical aircraft".


Edited by isoul
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Sorry for resurrecting but Renato71 told me (with a unique way) that I should have answered to his question(see below)

 

@Renato71 : Since you got offended for not answering your question below

 

...

BTW, market value for localization like DCS:BS is around 1000 EUR. Will YOU invest 1000 EUR into ED?

 

...or at least thats what I get when you disapprove my post with the comment "You did't reply on my question about investing 1000 EUR in ED" I think you 'll feel much better if I answer. So, here you are :

 

No, I wouldn't invest 1000euros in ED since I am not an investor! I am but a simple customer. I paid my 28 hard earned euros and that's it! I have a game to keep myself busy and I don't ask much.

 

One point I missed is who forced you to spend so much money in ED or its products or who forced you to rent a server/domain dedicated to LO/DCS?

I believe it was your own decision, right? Have you signed any contract with ED or something? Did they cheat you?

 

Whatever your answer is one thing is sure... Its not my fault!

 

And, as I said time and time again, I've already invested into FC/DCS more them most of the forum members here. Yesterday, I've paid 120 USD for domain/server hosting devoted to FC/DCS support and advertising, on top of all previous investments, TeamSpeak, giving away FC and DCS as gifts (which I have paid for!), workhours invested...

Forget assuming, less alone calling me cheap :mad:

 

I haven't called anyone cheap. I just said that I find the game's price cheap(compared to other titles). I bought one copy of DCS:BS for 28euros but this doesn't make me, or anyone else, an inferior forum member compared to you! Still, if you paid so much for LO/DCS no one can be blamed about it. If you had a contract with ED and they cheated you(which I doubt)... well, search for a lawyer and I hope he will defend your rights in court! Till then stop blaming ED for your poor decisions and respect other's opinions.


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This may be the wrong thread to make this post, and if so the mods may move to the correct thread!

I have just watched on The Military Channel (UK), a documentary about Red Flag.

 

I was interested in the report "Hinds have been a feature of Red Flag exercises for a number of years, to provide a threat against other helos and slow aircraft such as the A-10. In recent exercises the Hinds have been able to take out fast jets such as F-16 and even F-15C."

 

I find this comment interesting. When FC2 is released, linking over multiplayer with Black Shark, users will be able to explore the procedures and tactics that should be used by a helo with an A2A capibility against fixed wing threats.

You may discover something that the military do not yet know about, as I do not know of any real military simulators that are exploring this scenario.

 

When Flanker was first released back in 1995, it was discovered that if an Su27 could survive BVR against an F-15C, the Su27 had a significant advantage in fighting within visual range because of the HMS and off-boresight missile.

The US military discovered this after German re-unification when they had access to Mig-29s and flew F-16s against the Mig-29s. The F-16s had a big surprise, until the Mig-29s had to RTB due to running out of fuel. As a result, major US effort to develop the AIM9X.

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Yeah, seriously, look at it this way:

 

I've killed Hurricanes and Spitfires in IL-2 with my J-8. The J-8 is outmatched even by the I-153. So how? I caused them to move into an area where I have advantages. Take a trip in the LO:FC 25T and kill some tanks, then make a replica of the mission for DCS:BS and go in there with the shark - and you'll note that there are some regimes where your slower speed works to your advantage. Of course, this doesn't translate quite as well to the A2A arena, but a skilled pilot will figure out what specific things he'll have to do to get things over to his advantage and then proceed to do that. The helicopter vs jet fighter/CAS aircraft thing is just a case of raising the difficulty in a serious way - there's always a way or method, but a lot of the time you won't get a chance to use it. But sometimes... you will... ;)

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...I was interested in the report "Hinds have been a feature of Red Flag exercises for a number of years, to provide a threat against other helos and slow aircraft such as the A-10. In recent exercises the Hinds have been able to take out fast jets such as F-16 and even F-15C."

 

An exercise where Hinds were pitted against western jets? Really interesting!

Which nations took part.

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  • ED Team
An exercise where Hinds were pitted against western jets? Really interesting!

Which nations took part.

 

The documentary did not specify which nations were taking part, obviously USA was one of them.

For more info:-

http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/red_flag_photos_bill.html

http://www.lazygranch.com/flags.htm

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The documentary did not specify which nations were taking part, obviously USA was one of them.

For more info:-

http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/red_flag_photos_bill.html

http://www.lazygranch.com/flags.htm

 

I know that US has at least 1 Mi-24 Hind in its possession for training purposes of ground troops and anti-aircraft units. Its possible that they used that one.

 

Since the exercise took place in Nevada I doubt that any Russian unit traveled there. I think that if you search youtube you 'll find at least one video showing the Hind used in training US troops and the US Hind pilot telling stuff about his "enemy" great helicopter and its capabilities.

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As a relative newbie, I have trouble getting a radar lock on low flying helos, (500ft – ish), on my F-15 radar, even when depressed to the lowest elevation. As an experiment I fly the “instant action” F-15 mission, deal with all the jets, then hunt the helo, (there is one bumbling about).

Unless am doing this wrong, I have to locate visually, (labels on), dive and use bore sight or lift vector radar mode, (whatever LOMAC calls it), to get a lock. Even then, I am at very close range and might as well go IR.

As a side note, though it would be nice to have full compatibility between FC2, BS and the new modules, I am not going to throw my toys out of the pram if they aren’t totally seamless. After all, it’s not as though the shelves are bulging with quality flight sims ATM. Apart from Maddox and a few others, ED is about it.

 

There is also the software development time required to maintain backwards compatibility with previous iterations of the engine, as more new stuff is grafted on, etc. (this trips Microsoft up!), so, support them, don’t expect the world on a plate, and have fun!

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I know that US has at least 1 Mi-24 Hind in its possession for training purposes of ground troops and anti-aircraft units. Its possible that they used that one.

 

Aye, captured during Desert Storm if I remember correctly.

I suspect they have more though, since I've seen pictures of Hinds with the side-mounted 30mm twinbarrel gun instead of the "traditional" turret that were captioned as american.

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