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ECM and IFF for F15c???


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Situation1:

 

F15c client with two incoming ECM. One is enemy MiG29S and second is friendly F15c. If i lock friendly ECM i have friend identification. If i lock enemy ECM (mig29) no friendly identification, ok.

 

Situation2:

 

F15c client with two incoming ECM. One is enemy MiG29S and second is friendly MiG29S. If i lock friendly ECM (MiG29s) i have friend idetification. If i lock enemy ECM ( MiG29S) no friend identification.

 

Situation3:

 

Client Mig29S with two incoming ECM. If i lock friendly ECM (MiG29S) NO FRIEND IDETIFICATION. If i lock enemy ECM NO FRIEND IDENTIFICATION.

 

This is BUG or only FC2.0???

 

Russian pilots, F15c in 2.0 in every moment know who is friend or enemy trough ECM. :doh:

NOUS DEFIONS

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Well, ECM/ECCM modeling is very limited and compromised in LO FC2 just as its predecessors were. It also hurts F-15 by force-switching its targeting system to always go STT at burn through alerting the other planes of impending attack when this does not happen IRL (however we still couldn't provide enough data to prove it).

 

However we also know F-15 IRL has NCTR (along with better ECCM) and the mig does not, it only has IFF, its radar is much shorter ranged , prone to jamming etc. So in fact you still wouldn't prevent the F-15 to have a large advantage over mig even if things were fixed right. There is simply no way to do better than what we have now without better new code.

 

 

 

Having said this I can also suggest to yoda and AS for proposing LUA scripts to limit ECM usage (burns out after an interval of time) so people couldn't use it all the time to mitigate these problems. of course this should be discussed in the squads round table. I dont like ECM on by default at take off either.


Edited by Pilotasso

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we can also have ECM banned by script on server by demand. :)

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ECM...here I am over here, what's that my altitude? Oh my altitude is ?? and I am 12 degrees right aspect off your nose, thanks and in appreciation here is a 120 for ya. It has it's place, but, often not in most situations, it simply a big flashlight in a dark room.

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But how will I get HOJ kills anymore?

 

Is HOJ you main method of achieving kills? that a hard way to do it. in FC2.0 you realy need to be high and fast to manage it.

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It's not my main method, but I've use it a few times. People blasting ECM all day aren't that bad, though I admit it's easier to deal with in the F-15 (Unless Su/MiG has AWACS). It makes finding them easier and I know what altitude they're at.

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It's not my main method, but I've use it a few times. People blasting ECM all day aren't that bad, though I admit it's easier to deal with in the F-15 (Unless Su/MiG has AWACS). It makes finding them easier and I know what altitude they're at.

 

The fanatastic longrange HOJ kills from 1.12, are not working anymore in 2.0, with the limited max range of the 120's (AIM-120 flew forever in FC1.12) and the further burn through ranges, so this has changed a bit.

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I've never played 1.12.

 

I don't mean to make it sound like I get a dozen per mission, I jus don't find ECM all that annoying (except when there are ten thousand friendly jammers in front of you).

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:huh: FC2 AMRAAMS fly much much much longer. From 50000+ It has more than 40 miles range.

 

in Fc1.12 however missiles worked like aerial mines and gave 2-3 seconds warning, but would only get targets 20 miles away in most HOJ scenarios. This no longer works that way, targets are alerted from much longer giving you the impression you they fall shorter but heck this is not the case.

 

If you managed not to get fired at 25 miles while flying high AMRAAM is proving to have a PK of nearly 50%. Old AMRAAM had like 16% PK no matter the range it was fired from which not only was poor but weird.

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in Fc1.12... but would only get targets 20 miles away in most HOJ scenarios.

 

So not true about in FC1... From recent experience flying F15 in FC1, I was making hundreds of kills both HOJ and TWS from 40+ Miles, on low and high targets alike... which quite frankly made flying F15 the most boring, yet the most effective AC to fly (80/1 KD at one point on 51st server, and no, i wasnt shooting ducks :smilewink:)... HOJ was especially effective for reasons MoGas and others stated above...

 

I guess in FC2 the HOJ is less "surprising" thats for sure... also the 120s will no longer do crazy 90 degree dives anymore so they do indeed give you more time to react...

 

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I would like to see tracks of that.

You also had a world beating record of friendly fire kills :D and I bet you wasted lots of missiles for each extreme range shot . I think you never quite used the F-15 right (the SIM's flaws pushed no one to do it), and still need to learn properly use it. ID target and get shoot cue (effective range) and wait for TTA. Thats the fun 99% of the people missed and are just now finding it out in FC2.

I think I only got one 40 miles kill and a few 35 mile kills in 1.12 from 47000 feet (my maximum altitude with a loaded F-15 back then) and the missiles were practically hanging in midair when it happened (probably the victim receive too little warning to get away or I was lucky for their overconfidence/neglet). I had a talk with people in the know who said 40 miles was pretty much the maximum effective range you could do in 1.12 from high altitude to high altitude, but most people flew low.

 

My experiene in FC2 is that after ID target and get shoot cue I get a lot more kills than in 1.12 and at much greater distance, notably NEZ which increased to almost 20 miles depending on the geometry of the fight from a rather undetermined NEZ in 1.12 (it would fall to the ground at practicably any range if the target knew how to make it waste energy or decoy it at any aspect).


Edited by Pilotasso
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What I mean is, that u cant kill someone from 115km anymore in FC2.0, I did alot HOJ kills in 1.12, between 95-115km.

FC1.12 AIM-120 flew way over R-max, remember that.


Edited by MoGas
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If anything, I would expect them to not simulate it in DCS.

 

I can understand that it is very difficult to simulate, due to the secrecy involved and the technological complexity. On the other hand, making a simulation without ECM would be totally unrealistic. Chances are that in a real combat situation you would be flying in an extremely dense ECM environment.

 

It's not because it comes in unhandy, that it isn't very present. The aircracft over Kosovo were constantly "music on". You just need it against ground threads in the first place.

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My guess on what would happen regarding the mega-top-secret stuff would be that users simply will not notice that it's "not there". I mean, it's not secret that Aircraft X can use Jammer Y, and the basic operation of it can probably be deduced and simulated properly, but there might be details that have to be approximated.

 

Example: jet fighter passing updates to a missile through it's radar sidelobes. It can be simulated without knowing exactly how it's done if it is known what information it wants to pass to the missile and when.

 

Similarly, it might be known that radar X can obtain approximate range information from a jammer through a trick and that this can be done under Y and Z conditions. Then it can be simulated even if it is not entirely known exactly how it happens.

 

Basically the same thing as we don't have to emulate the 486 (I think it was a 486DX?) in the Ka-50 ABRIS, we only have to have the simulation produce the expected output of said processor.

 

Remember that most of it comes down to physics, and physics can be modeled mathematically - whereafter you can run the simulator on a mathematical model that gives the appropriate results. (I think the laser burnout on the Ka-50 is a good example there - DCS isn't actually simulating every single wire, transistor and coil since that would quite simply be a waste of resources when a mathematical model can yield the same result.)

 

The sticky point always is to get enough well documented information to ensure that your models are actually correct - the neverending debate about missile range is an example there. The model doesn't need to know what fuel the rocket motor is burning. It just needs to know what thrust it gives, for how long, and how fast the fuel mass is reduced.

 

The really big issue is when even that information is top secret - like for the absolutely newest missiles. How big an issue that will be for ECM is something I have even less of a clue about than I do about the rest. :P

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You also had a world beating record of friendly fire kills :D and I bet you wasted lots of missiles for each extreme range shot.

 

Most TKs i had (14 in total i believe) were actually close range bore shots due to IFF not working, me being stupid... etc... and was only in the first months of flying... that was sorted fast once LRM started working properly with HUD IFF blink... Hardly much, given the number of flight hours and absolutely no TKs in the last half of the year, oh and certainly nothing compared to your 504 days TK stats ;)

 

Of course there were some unfortunate mishaps, but not more than what was to be expected with active missiles, and thats for 250+ kills in just a space of 3 months or so when i was flying F15 almost exclusively... So that is really not related to the overall tactics, more like pilot error or comm factors...

 

Oh and sorry, i dont have the tracks unfortunately (all my FC1 stuff is gone from my HD), but i would say on average, each sortie brought home 1-2 kills, with sometimes even as high as 5+ (with even instances of a couple of triple TWS and one Quadruple TWS kill :)) Its all in the stats logs obviosly so you can see for yourself...

 

I think you never quite used the F-15 right (the SIM's flaws pushed no one to do it), and still need to learn properly use it

 

Whatever u say professor... I think 80/1 for a months worth at on point would imply i was using the F15 fine... dont you think? And 36.6/1 for a years overall (2009) isnt too shandy either :lol:

 

http://www.51st.org/stats/aces.php?pid=09all

 

But it doesnt matter... To me, this whole thing after flying F15 so much lately just proves how good it is when used properly (even in FC1 with all the complaints ppl had for it). I havent gotten to put it through its paces yet in FC2, but id bet nothing significant has changed...

 

F15 is the king of the skies in LOMAC, period, and has been so since 1.02... All the whining and all that is just due poor use of its exceptional BVR qualities by those who must be missing something somewhere (although some issues were indeed well founded, such as lack of IFF for example)

 

Yet at the end of the day, flying F15 for me has also been the most BORING thing just as it was extremely successful.

 

So Id still take my Su-27 anyday! :pilotfly:

 

Cheers!


Edited by Breakshot

 

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I'm sorry if I sounded disrespectful, however the only way to keep myself on the discussion was to mention those things or otherwise had no way reply at all. Tough spot for such as I, and you know me better. ;) S!


Edited by Pilotasso

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Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

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I always wait for lock onto target and have fired thousands of 120's over my fc1 flying. Not many at very high alt. but a lot around 14 to 20 thousand and they have missed there target a lot. Too much so. Had an su-27 locked at 43km but no shoot cue till within 20. fired 4 in fire rate about 30 sec. apart. none hit and that was an AI a/c. Glad to hear that's at least been fixed as best it can in FC2.

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