Question about stable flying - Super noob Helo driver

[zahedia3]

Hi All!

 

So I just recently purchased BS. I never flew a helo before, so please be patient.

 

I completed the training up to hover, and have relatively little difficulty handling the helo....

 

But

 

when I create my own mission, cold cockpit start up, things are different:

 

After the "after start and before take-off checks", when I take it up in the air, I am unable to maintain level flight, turn, or stay coordinated. It is like I am flying a completely different machine. It almost feels like I am sitting on the tip of a needle. Very unstable. I know I am forgetting something, maybe a stab switch, somewhere, on the before take off check.

 

Can you help?

Thanks a million

[Vitesse2l]

First thought - have you switched on the three autopilot channels?

 

Blue buttons on lower right hand panel. They should illuminate.

[zahedia3]

First thought - have you switched on the three autopilot channels?

 

Blue buttons on lower right hand panel. They should illuminate.

 

No, I think I forgot to do that. Is that it? I must have missed that part during the training video.

[zahedia3]

First thought - have you switched on the three autopilot channels?

 

Blue buttons on lower right hand panel. They should illuminate.

 

Vitesse, I think that was it.

I guess the Autopilot switches threw me off. I looked at them as actual autopilot switches, and not pitch/roll/yaw stab switches.

 

You are a genius, an artist and a scholar my friend. Bien Joue et merci!

[BKLronin]

But remember that you must learn flying without the AP´s otherwise you can get in trouble.

[Vitesse2l]

Thanks for the thanks!

 

Glad you are sorted.

[Speed]

Flying without the AP buttons is easy, you just have to pay attention to the aircraft all the time...

 

Zahedia, the autopilot channels actually do ALSO serve autopilot functions. They have like 20% control authority over the chopper and attempt to return it to the heading, bank, pitch, (and altitude if enabled) that the helicopter was in when the trim button was LAST RELEASED. If you never pressed the trim button, then it's the heading, pitch, roll, etc. that you started the game in, I believe. Many of us do all of our manuvers with the trim button held down all the time, and only release the trim button when we want to fly in a straight line for a while. An alternate method is to use the flight director (the fifth blue button by the four blue autopilot buttons, labelled "FD AP"), which as far as I know, disables the heading, bank, pitch, and altitude hold portions of the autopilot channels while leaving the stability portions active. I've tried it a few times and I don't like it; additionally, you have to turn it off before you can enter autohover.

[FZG_Kes]

But remember that you must learn flying without the AP´s otherwise you can get in trouble.

 

Why would you want to fly without AP's ?

[sobek]

Why would you want to fly without AP's ?

 

To train for situations that involve it failing. ;)

[FZG_Kes]

Train yourself not to get hit :D

 

But ok, good point ;)

[zahedia3]

Flying without the AP buttons is easy, you just have to pay attention to the aircraft all the time...

 

Zahedia, the autopilot channels actually do ALSO serve autopilot functions. They have like 20% control authority over the chopper and attempt to return it to the heading, bank, pitch, (and altitude if enabled) that the helicopter was in when the trim button was LAST RELEASED. If you never pressed the trim button, then it's the heading, pitch, roll, etc. that you started the game in, I believe. Many of us do all of our manuvers with the trim button held down all the time, and only release the trim button when we want to fly in a straight line for a while. An alternate method is to use the flight director (the fifth blue button by the four blue autopilot buttons, labelled "FD AP"), which as far as I know, disables the heading, bank, pitch, and altitude hold portions of the autopilot channels while leaving the stability portions active. I've tried it a few times and I don't like it; additionally, you have to turn it off before you can enter autohover.

 

Very nice Speed. Thanks for the awesome post. Very helpful.

 

I am so used to flying fixed wing airplanes in and out of the sim world, that I totally had to re-wire my brain to handle this thing. Holding the trim down sounds counter intuitive, but just like everything else in flying a helicopter... Ha ha.

I'll try it and see.

 

Oh, another question really quick. Can you start the second engine using the other one (crossbleed start), or must you use the APU always?

 

Thx

[Avilator]

There is no crossbleed capability, the APU must be running and the green valve light on the start panel must be out. As a side note, you should wait about 30~60 seconds between starting engines, because the work makes the APU exhaust gas temperature go up. Also, wait 60 seconds before spooling the engines up from idle to auto.

[Frederf]

A lot of us took a long time to wrap out heads around the AP channels (and many still have yet to). I wish someone would have told me, day one, that the channel is the hold + stabilization. Trim/FD/Col. Brake suspends the hold while the stabilization is on all the time.

 

That little bit of info is invaluable to understanding what's going on.

[PedroTheGoat]

Okay, so after the fine folks on these forums woke me up to how trimmer and the AP works I feel as if I want to share some of my input on what I have learned over the past week.

 

Despite popular belief, the autopilot channels DO NOT equal automatic death. Just think of the AP as your local friendly workload reducer. It will keep you going in a specified direction at a specified speed when you let go of the trimmer. Even though you do not want to release the trim when your helicopter is not stable... (Banked too far one way or the other, rudder trimmed too far in a certain direction, nose tilted down at 30 degrees, etc) because the AP only has 20% control over your heli... So if your Heli is cocked and wonky whenever you release the trim... The AP can fight to keep you going in one direction only so much.

 

The way that I think of Flight Director mode is like this... It's like holding the trimmer down when FD is off. So during a transitional stage of flight like going from a hover to forward flight it becomes extremely useful. So, I activate FD whenever I do not feel like holding the trimmer down for 3 minutes or so. Whenever I become stable and get in the direction and speed I want to be going... I just disable FD and the AP takes control so this goat doesn't have to worry about flying at all. (In mother Russia... Helicopter flies YOU!) FD is also EXTREMELY useful when you need to fix your cannons and rockets to boresight and get DOWN AND DIRTY. (Which are some of the most exciting parts of the game)

 

And for the truly lazy... (Like me...) Simply press "R" on your keyboard and watch your helicopter do ALL the boring stuff while following waypoints. (This allows me to play with my countermeasures and look at pretty scenery along the way to the action) Just make sure to press R again and disable route mode whenever you're getting close to your desired location... I forgot this once... And it lead to me being a grounded and roasting goat.

 

If you are NOT holding down the trimmer when using AP and are trying ANY kind of maneuvering, the helicopter will fight you to keep it in it's trimmed location. So if FD is NOT on... Make sure to hold the trimmer down whenever your are changing direction, rudder, bank, etc.

 

Autohover is awesome! Just make sure to AP trim your way to close to a stable hover before activating, otherwise things can get really wonky. Also, whenever I deactivate Auto Hover, I always disable the Alt Hold that comes on automatically.

 

Just my thoughts after a week of working with AP. And once again, thanks to the posters who opened my eyes to AP NOT being Satan.

Edited April 13, 2010 by PedroTheGoat

[slug88]

Looks like you've got it just about spot-on, Pedro. Not bad for only a week of work!

[PedroTheGoat]

Looks like you've got it just about spot-on, Pedro. Not bad for only a week of work!

 

Yeah, I've been working hard to figure stuff out so I can play with you guys online! Now all I need to do is work on my ABRIS skills and Datalink, then I'll be confident enough to come online.

[BKLronin]

Why would you want to fly without AP's ?

To train for situations that involve it failing. ;)

 

Absoloutely right sobek, it´s nice to be able continuing a mission instead of rtb :D

 

Additionally it´s just great to feel the full flight dynamics of the chopper. "Gourmet Mode"

 

yummy

[average_pilot]

Pedro, why are you enabling FD to transition from hover to forward flight? To me is like: press trim, move joystick forward, release trim, move joystick to center, then relax and see how speed increases while the AP channels fly the thing for you.

[Bushmanni]

If you want to accelerate quickly, you need to dip nose way down and as speed increases you need to trim as autopilots control authority isn't enough to keep nose down. Ka-50 accelerates so quickly that trimming just slows you down or is extra work you need to pay attention to and therefore I don't bother with. It just feels more simpler and less complicated to accelerate or decelerate with FD on. But it's true that if you ain't in a hurry or have more patience not using the FD would be easier, and I actually do this sometimes.

[BKLronin]

I also tested the function of the FD today and I have to say that push and hold oft the Trimming button, to suspend the APs while in transition, is much easier! Because When you release the AP in the same "workcycle" you got the perfet new heading or sideslip or whatever. Autopilots are such a powerful tool.

 

Works best for me, you can dissasamble my FD button and system If you want to :P

 

TRIMMY TRIMMSEN is the coolest!

[BluesmanSF]

What I REALLY love in this sim, is that the more you fly the Shark, the more you begin to understand all the dynamics involved, and yet the more you begin to appreciate the machine and enjoy flying! =D

 

A small note, I've learned that with more or less a default conf. (75% or so fuel, Vikrh's and S8's) the bird pretty much hovers without the HOVER-mode by pitching the nose up about 4-5 degrees, so by looking at the hud it's fairly easy to decelerate into hover by adding more nose-up, and after stopping, trimming to 4-5 nose-up attitude. I know this might be self-explainatory to most of you, but it has helped me to stabilize the Shark every now and then. =)

 

And I really have to see into that FD thingy, I have considered it just a learning tool for the early stages of practice, but there might be some genuine advantages in the acceleration and decelaration stages, as you guys suggested.

 

Darn we have a helpful community, thanks! S!

 

6S_Blues

[Sulman]

What I REALLY love in this sim, is that the more you fly the Shark, the more you begin to understand all the dynamics involved, and yet the more you begin to appreciate the machine and enjoy flying! =D

 

A small note, I've learned that with more or less a default conf. (75% or so fuel, Vikrh's and S8's) the bird pretty much hovers without the HOVER-mode by pitching the nose up about 4-5 degrees, so by looking at the hud it's fairly easy to decelerate into hover by adding more nose-up, and after stopping, trimming to 4-5 nose-up attitude. I know this might be self-explainatory to most of you, but it has helped me to stabilize the Shark every now and then. =)

 

And I really have to see into that FD thingy, I have considered it just a learning tool for the early stages of practice, but there might be some genuine advantages in the acceleration and decelaration stages, as you guys suggested.

 

Darn we have a helpful community, thanks! S!

 

6S_Blues

 

Indeed. When I was learning the best habit I learnt was attitude, attitude, attitude. Also, wait'n'see. At some point, a combination of muscle memory and and hand-eye coordination settles in, and you get ahead of the Shark.

 

I still end up occasionally in what I call 'sideslip hell'; a combination of hasty maneuver and fighting the stability channels, whilst frantically trying to trim attitude in. Much of that is down to me learning trim the 'prescribed' way, rather than holding it down. I don't like the dramatic change in control feedback when trim is held down; I've got used to the breakaway forces needed when working with the AP channels.

[BluesmanSF]

Yes, good point Sulman about the attitude and wait'n see. There's truly a feel of almost nirvanish' achievement after you can accurately predict what the heck will happen in 10-20secs ..not that I've been there but "the boys told me" :smilewink:

 

And darn that I had fun last night, on a sudden strike of utter nonsense it came to mind that "why not disengage all the AP", and decided to go to the nearest town for a little urban show-off. To my surprise I didn't crash while sweeping the streets and trying all kinds of fancy stuff "down in the town". AND, after about 20mins of goofing, boy it was EASY to fly with the AP stabs on! :thumbup: I definitely encourage to try it. WITH immortal - on XD

 

6S_Blues

[Avimimus]

I've been having quite a bit of trouble. Part of it may be that I am using an old logitech stick (after my X-52 gave out).

 

I've found flying with the autopilot disengaged really improves the experience. However, I still cannot reliably hit anything with rockets. This is the main reason why I don't fly DCS.

[Sulman]

I've found flying with the autopilot disengaged really improves the experience. However, I still cannot reliably hit anything with rockets. This is the main reason why I don't fly DCS.

 

It's really hard. Long setup helps - It's a bit like landing. Pick out the target, and setup slowly. I stay on heading (the target is the reference point) with a gentle attitude, about 5 degrees down, and wait for the pipper to converge on target, and release. Turn around, head back out, and have another run - you can pick them up again on the TV quite easily once you're trimmed for the approach.

 

Infantry's resilience to rockets exploding a few metres away always gives me a laugh. They're very brave.