AIM120C & R27ER % kills within FC2 compared to 1.12b

[Bouddha]

Hi all,

 

Seems to me that within FC2, the % kills of R27ER & AIM120C have been reduced compared to 1.12b.

 

This is great, I love it.

 

Can someone confirm that ?

 

Its good that now lots of fight go to CAC or even in kind of dogfight when compared to 1.12b you could relatively easely solve the fight in BVR.

 

regards :)

[Sov13t]

lol?

[Bouddha]

lol?

 

Sorry, I do not understand why ?

I am serrious but could understand that I missed something ?

 

regards

[Sov13t]

Sorry, it actually appears to be the opposite. That BVR has become truly BVR with the missile effectiveness raised to an unprecedented level.

[Ven]

online or offline?

[Bouddha]

online or offline?

 

 

Offline

 

Just did a few BVRs fight with an SU27 vs F15 and the opposite. I was really surprised how easy it is to escape these missiles.

 

Most of the shots are either at CAC when visual on the other aircraft.

When at IR missile distance.

 

I dont remember that was so easely possible with 1.12b even so I havent played for about 3 Years....

 

EDIT : a snake works really well...

[Pilotasso]

Im glad you happy, however I am also, and I dont see this missile kill reduction at all. online or solo VS AI. I have been getting a lot of kills well beyond visual range. Further, people in MP are much more cautious in order not to be caught off guard. A shot at 20 km from a large stick is really hard to evade, where previously you could chaff it at any range with impunity.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Pilotasso

[3Sqn_Sven]

Im glad you happy, however I am also, and I dont see this missile kill reduction at all. online or solo VS AI. I have been getting a lot of kills well beyond visual range. Further, people in MP are much more cautious in order not to be caught off guard. A shot at 20 km from a large stick is really hard to evade, where previously you could chaff it at any range with impunity.

 

I've found the same. I'm getting a PK of about 60% with aim120's now, previously it was about 30%.

[ScEBlack1]

Yes I admit it is quite easy, I love the Eagle and I am happy with the upgrade, BUT, I am also afraid it will very quickly become an F15 vs F15 online experience, the trend is already there at times. I believe based only on reading material and news clips that it should be and is very deadly fighter with better radar and other items and the true life engagements have proven it as well, BUT, again if it does become such an easy fighter to kill in it will for me hurt the sim because I don't wish to fight online all night against Eagle vs Eagle just because.

 

Yes i agree it could and does have much more to it in real life and realism is great, but, to the point of the sim becoming boring as far as fighter vs fighter then that makes me nervous, I have always been for the underdog in life and this has already sparked my interest in flying the Mig, at least when I do kill in it I know it was not from very high altitude, 2 120's in the air and notch or leave the fight, it was from having to be more creative and use my mind more and study the situation better. Please don't take this the wrong way, I love the Eagle and am real happy with the upgrades, I just am picturing a future of almost entirely F15 online fights with a SU or Mig just thrown in there.

 

Has everything possible been done for the Russian birds based upon the model and era of the planes so as to help to at least quell some of the arguments? or has it been done in 2.0 and this is just how it is? I am not trying to start anything here bad, I just want to see the community and the sim shine together for a long long time that's all. I fly everything and love it all and there is so much to the sim, but, online for me is were I have the most fun and I dont want to see that ruined.

[thaFunkster]

I have Dled FC2.0 but have yet to play it.

 

How does the R-27R and ER Stack up against the Aim120C?

 

And, more to the point how does the Flanker stack up against the Eagle? Because sure the Eagle is a capable aircraft, but IRL there has never been any SU27 vs F15 engagements that could really show how capable each is if I am not mistaken.

 

I thought the SU27 was more or less on par with the F15?

[Bouddha]

Maybe it has been to long since I havent played LO 1.12b

 

I didn't fly 100 BVR fights yet within FC2 so maybe I will change my mind later.

 

But up to now in FC2, a kill when the lunch autorisation is in the middle (50%) of the gauge was never made.

 

In FC1.12b, I could do kills at about 70% within the lunch autorisation.

[Pilotasso]

I have Dled FC2.0 but have yet to play it.

 

How does the R-27R and ER Stack up against the Aim120C?

 

And, more to the point how does the Flanker stack up against the Eagle? Because sure the Eagle is a capable aircraft, but IRL there has never been any SU27 vs F15 engagements that could really show how capable each is if I am not mistaken.

 

I thought the SU27 was more or less on par with the F15?

 

 

R-27ER is deadlier than ever, however Su-27 have had some difficulties employing it because they have to come closer, about 25-30km in order not to give time to target to notch wich has been making them somewhat vulnerable by anyone else using ARH including migs. head to head you can destroy your target first but then you can also take one AR missile on the face ending in mutual destruction. You have to achieve surprise to send one, and then yes it will eat everything else for lunch.

 

Another positive thing is that maddogs rarely work, and X ray BVR MK1 eyeball no longer is there, and so people are starting to use smarter tactics. :)

Edited April 14, 2010 by Pilotasso

[isoul]

Actually there won't be any Su-27 vs F-15 fight in the near future, and if this comes to reality, it will probably be US F-15 vs some minor air force with not well trained or well armed pilots/aircraft. So any outcome wouldn't be without doubts*.

 

Since this is a theory talk, I expect that AIM-120C would be better than any other counterpart for one reason...

 

AIM-120 has being fired in real fights and it had much more opportunities to be evaluated and improved.

 

* In a real fight I think there are some factors that counts much but can't be measured. That is "pilot's experience" and "facing the unknown"! We all understand the "experience" part! The "unknown" is the enemy weapons that pilot haven't faced before or haven't been tested in real combat. The lack of knowledge of the enemy puts much stress to any warrior and is capable of negating much of the technological. Still this works both ways, right?

Edited April 14, 2010 by isoul

[ARM505]

Face it, online will devolve to the most effective killer, barring a few hardcore holdouts who love the underdog, or the specific aircraft. Thats the nature of PvP, it's to be expected. The number of available slots per side would have to be limited (ie 5 F15 vs 8 Su27 for example) or some other way would have to be found to achieve the 'game' requirement of balance. IL2's (not inbuilt) way of limiting aircraft and pilot numbers was a nice idea, but not currently doable in LO AFAIK.

[thaFunkster]

@ Pilotasso: I dont entirely understand what you mean about the notch thing. Are you saying that you have to close to target before firing a 27ER because at long range you can easily defeat it by doing a split-s or similar?

 

Isnt that also the case with a 120?

 

@isoul: You might be right, but I am not sure that evaluating missiles in combat would really add that much data: They would already have live fired the missiles in every conceivable situation I imagine..

[EtherealN]

Funkster, no, like this: on a longer-ranged shot the target has more time to defeat it through bleeding it's energy through maneuver and going into the "look-down clutter notch" - basically turning perpendicular to the missile flight path and diving to make the aircraft disappear in the "clutter" echoes from the terrain. Basicaly - place the missile (if you acquire it) or the launching aircraft at your 3 or 9 o'clock and dive to make their radar see ground behind you. If you get it right, your aircraft's radar echo will be filtered out as part of the terrain.

[159th_Royalman]

Basicaly - place the missile (if you acquire it) or the launching aircraft at your 3 or 9 o'clock and dive to make their radar see ground behind you. If you get it right, your aircraft's radar echo will be filtered out as part of the terrain.

 

 

Which is the tricky part when flying the Su27. You cannot be offensive while defensive. But in the F15 or Mig29S you can, because both the AMRAAM and AMRAAMsky are fire and forget.

[ScEBlack1]

"the AMRAAM and AMRAAMsky are fire and forget"

 

Not exactly, they need initial guidance before becoming active homing unless under 12 miles roughly.

[159th_Royalman]

But still under 12 miles you can go defensive while remaining offensive!

[EtherealN]

Yeah, but the faster ER will get to target quicker than the AIM-120 and R-77 (although it loses energy real quick against a maneuvering target), and at 10nm the Flanker can make a silent ET attack through IRST. (I die so much to those damn ET's. :P)

 

EDIT:

Not exactly, they need initial guidance before becoming active homing unless under 12 miles roughly.

 

IRL, yes, but in FC2 the 120 is in PN throughout it's flight AFAIK - including the stage where it should be in inertial with datalink.

Edited April 14, 2010 by EtherealN

[asparagin]

I die so much to those damn ET's. :P)

.

 

Ohh noo.. that means you are also on the dark side!! :no:

[EtherealN]

I was borged by GG. :P

[asparagin]

I was borged by GG. :P

 

[RedTiger]

Funkster, no, like this: on a longer-ranged shot the target has more time to defeat it through bleeding it's energy through maneuver and going into the "look-down clutter notch" - basically turning perpendicular to the missile flight path and diving to make the aircraft disappear in the "clutter" echoes from the terrain. Basicaly - place the missile (if you acquire it) or the launching aircraft at your 3 or 9 o'clock and dive to make their radar see ground behind you. If you get it right, your aircraft's radar echo will be filtered out as part of the terrain.

 

It's not so much about bleeding the missile's energy, it's about causing the launching plane to lose lock. Notching will completely and utterly defeat a SARH missile...at least in Lock On. Notch = completely wasted missile since the missile goes ballistic shortly after the launching plane looses lock. It can also defeat the Aim-120 both prior to going active and after, but the latter is hard to do when it is launched close and of course you lose a SARH lock if you notch.

 

Pilotasso is right. If you launch at long range against someone who knows what they are doing, you're probably going to waste all your missiles.

Edited April 14, 2010 by RedTiger

[EtherealN]

Yeah, what I meant is that through diving you are also making it easier for yourself through forcing the missile to denser air, slowing it down, and giving you more time to get an effective notch. I should have written that up better.