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How do you keep stable after a tight rudder turn ?


FZG_Kes
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Hi,

 

I've watched a lot Frazer's videos (thanks again and kudos to the awesome piloting) and I was impressed with Frazer's skill to stay stable after all those turns.

 

I'm struggling to keep the Blackshark stable after tight rudder turns or sometimes when trying to land my helicopter seems to always slide to one side or another.

 

I see Frazer giving opposite rudder input before finishing the turn but even trying that I can't seem to exit my turn straight to the heading i wanted without slide.

 

On a side note, while testing I have the Heading Autopilot disengaged.

 

Any hints on how to perfectly turn ?

 

Thanks

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131st VFS 'Death Vipers' - Sitar

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I'm no Frazer, so I look forward to seeing his thoughts on your question, but I will suggest that having the heading A/P disengaged will not get the results you want. Totally not a side note, the A/P is the core of your question (i think).

 

I suspect you would benefit from experimenting with trim. When transitioning from straight to curved path I would have the trimmer button pressed. Holding the trim will sorta disengage the heading A/P, and then once I've established my turn (tilted in the angle and a little rudder as well), I let go of the trim. Try this and you'll find that you are trimmed into the turn and your heading A/P will keep you heading in a turn. As you near the end of your intended turn, depress the trim button again, establish your straight flight-path and let go of the trim, no slip. I think that's will help with what you are looking for.

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Hi,

 

I've watched a lot Frazer's videos (thanks again and kudos to the awesome piloting) and I was impressed with Frazer's skill to stay stable after all those turns.

 

I'm struggling to keep the Blackshark stable after tight rudder turns or sometimes when trying to land my helicopter seems to always slide to one side or another.

 

I see Frazer giving opposite rudder input before finishing the turn but even trying that I can't seem to exit my turn straight to the heading i wanted without slide.

 

On a side note, while testing I have the Heading Autopilot disengaged.

 

Any hints on how to perfectly turn ?

 

Thanks

 

Turns were - and remain - the hardest part of the shark for me.

 

Using the AP channels, I set the required bank angle and trim it in. I then coordinate the turn using the rudder. You can create considerable turn rate at low speed, and this is what leads to uncoordinated flight and 'sideslip hell' when you attempt to arrest it. The trick is anticipation and early rollout, and watch the ball - as you roll out of the turn (gently, trim a lot) take care to remain coordinated. It's timing the rollout correctly and executing it smoothly. Too quick and the helicopter has high inertia pushing you to the outside circle of the turn, and you're in a sideslip. This is more easily corrected using the cyclic, as the rudder will only have authority in yaw once the helicopter is level, and you'll end up 'coning' - swinging the nose about in a sideslip.

 

James

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To Beers & Nate, Frazer in his videos do not use the Heading HP. I really think the heading AP is a nice tool to have but for flying straight, hovering and such. When turning the way you turn during some kind of airshow, I don't really see the point in it.

 

To Sulman, that's what I'm trying to achieve. I can handle it when i really stay focus on that but in the heat of battle I keep slidding around. Really annoying :D

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I had the same problem also when starting with BS. When coming out of turns, I would keep going sideways instead of forward when levelling after turn. What I didn't realize first was that the chopper can have a lot more AOA when turning tightly than fixed-wing that I had got used to. Depending on speed and collective setting it could be something like 90 degrees. If you just level after you have nose pointing in the right direction, the chopper will be still going entirely different direction. The solution is to keep the chopper banked a while after reaching correct heading and level after the velocity vector is pointing same way as the nose is. Learning to see the actual movement direction takes some practice. My flying isn't very neat looking though but I have at least I get the chopper going where I want.

 

One good way to practice making turns is to fly along city streets below rooftops. Make turns at street corners while going faster and faster and see how fast you can go while not hitting any buildings. I have managed about 100km/h when starting the turn, I don't remember how fast I got out of it but I'm sure it was less when considering I was sideways pulling pretty hard on the cyclic at one point. Starting out on taxiways and runway middle lines might be good idea first, depending on your skill. Fly perpendicular to them and make a turn so that you end up flying along the line. Having some clear line on the ground will help to see the sideways movement and gives good feedback on your progress.

 

Good thing to remember with choppers is that you don't change flight direction just with the pedals, as they control mostly the nose direction. Bank and pitch are mostly in charge of your flight direction and you keep the nose pointing the same way with pedals. When going over 120km/h it gets easier but you still can't completely revert to fixed-wing flying mode.

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You can put the Desired Heading/Desired Track** to its middle position (it's a 3 way) so that instead of being tugged towards a waypoint, it'll instead try and stabilise around the point you let go of the trim (all with the Heading Hold AP enabled of course).

 

It shouldn't make your flying any LESS stable.

 

** This is the switch furthest right on the AP switches panel, directly below the FD button.

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...

 

Good thing to remember with choppers is that you don't change flight direction just with the pedals, as they control mostly the nose direction. Bank and pitch are mostly in charge of your flight direction and you keep the nose pointing the same way with pedals. When going over 120km/h it gets easier but you still can't completely revert to fixed-wing flying mode.

 

True for the most part, though one manouver performed in those videos which makes it seem like it's the rudder action involved is this one.

 

When doing the 'hammerhead' type kick-turns (going vertical to a near-stall, then punting the nose around to point to the ground so you drop into a natural dive) you effectively change the blade pitch from an aggressive deceleration in one direction, to an aggressive acceleration in the opposite direction.

 

It's still rotor pitch that instigates the action and sets the move up, but the turning only begins and seems to take place when using the rudder, so it's deceptive.

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You can put the Desired Heading/Desired Track** to its middle position (it's a 3 way) so that instead of being tugged towards a waypoint, it'll instead try and stabilise around the point you let go of the trim (all with the Heading Hold AP enabled of course).

 

It shouldn't make your flying any LESS stable.

 

** This is the switch furthest right on the AP switches panel, directly below the FD button.

 

Not sure to understand here. I thought this switch was only usefull for the Route Mode.

 

Without route mode activated, the Heading AP just tries to keep you where you were heading when you released the trim.

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131st VFS 'Death Vipers' - Sitar

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My method is still: Press trim do the turn completely manual once you got your new course and have him stable in the air release trim- there you go hands off ready for searching through shkval :)

 

Just as a example how the AP´s can be used easily to your advantage.

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Turns were - and remain - the hardest part of the shark for me.

 

Yeah ditto. Coordinated turns at higher speeds aren't really a problem, but I would say 130 & slower it's still challenging.

 

I think the most difficult thing I've had to deal with is trying to anticipate the aircraft since I (still) expect fixed wing behavior, which may also be part of the problem the original poster is having.

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maybe i am not PRO pilot but i think is the problem is landing and slow speed turning chopper want go all place same time but not streight , my self when i come landing position i need keep nose my pedals , and remember guys chopper and airplanes allways want land direct wind if u come sideway wind wanna turn u somewhere. I use fast flying method click all autopilot channels of and then back , becouse i use hotas cougar trim which trim directly axis cant use game trim.

 

ps. when u come land tower give u wind direction and speed.

 

fast banking idea is use rudder and cyclic same time, and guys remember fly allways ball in middle.

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Not sure to understand here. I thought this switch was only usefull for the Route Mode.

 

And sometimes the auto-hover mode. A number of people have found that the heading hold heading doesn't update to their current heading when trimming, but remains fixed toward the current PVI point direction. It depends on some certain switch positions that I forget exactly but it can happen.

 

Also turning off the PVI task light (waypoint, navtgt, airfield) has the same effect as turning the DT/DH to the middle position.

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Hi,

 

I've watched a lot Frazer's videos (thanks again and kudos to the awesome piloting) and I was impressed with Frazer's skill to stay stable after all those turns.

 

I'm struggling to keep the Blackshark stable after tight rudder turns or sometimes when trying to land my helicopter seems to always slide to one side or another.

 

I see Frazer giving opposite rudder input before finishing the turn but even trying that I can't seem to exit my turn straight to the heading i wanted without slide.

 

On a side note, while testing I have the Heading Autopilot disengaged.

 

Any hints on how to perfectly turn ?

 

Thanks

 

Most of these things come (happily) quite natural to me. I have been flying gliders for about 6 years and so, using roll and rudder at the same time is nothing new to me. In fact, a glider acts very similar to the shark when it comes down to coordinated turns with some speed.

 

To be honest, when people ask me these kind of things I find it difficult to explain. I always need to jump in the pit to analize my own inputs.

 

Ok so, first of all, I do not use heading hold in aerobatic flying because in my opinion this is pointless when you plan to change your direction very often. Like you mentioned, heading hold is good for flying from A to B. And for the record, I do not use trimmers at all during displays, for the same reason stated above.

 

Now, you say you have issues with sidedrifting after coming out of a turn with relative slow speeds. I jumped in to the pit to reproduce this effect (a track would be better though) and the only advice I can come up with is that you might rollout too quickly, or you have been in an uncoordinated turn in the first place. In case you rollout too quick, I can advice you to kind of point your nose at the direction you want to rollout, though wait a second with rolling out. So, use a little push and a little rudder in the opposite turn direction for a second and only then roll out. In the second case, if you fly an uncoordinated turn in the first place, using the ball is a good instrument to see if you are drifting or not.

 

In the case of turning (spinning) with 0 speed I can advice you to make sure you are in a stable hover when kicking the rudder. You stay in a stable hover when you keep your nose at 7 degrees nose up angle. Then after kicking the rudder you need to pull a bit and increase collective somewhat. The exact opposite you need to do coming out of the spin.

 

I hope this answer solves your drifting problem.

 

And after all, practise is often a key thing in solving issues like these. Keep on flying and trying! :):joystick:

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Thanks a lot for the answer Frazer :)

 

I've only a week or so of flying the KA-50, and I'm training everyday after watching your track. It helps me a lot, and I will try and analyse my problem with regards to your answer and the others, if it persists, I'll track it.

 

As a side question, if you don't trim during your shows, any particular reason not to use the FD mode ? I guess you're used to it that way but is there another reason behind this ?


Edited by FZG_Kes

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Thanks a lot for the answer Frazer :)

 

I've only a week or so of flying the KA-50, and I'm training everyday after watching your track. It helps me a lot, and I will try and analyse my problem with regards to your answer and the others, if it persists, I'll track it.

 

As a side question, if you don't trim during your shows, any particular reason not to use the FD mode ? I guess you're used to it that way but is there another reason behind this ?

 

You are right about that, I'm simply not used to fly with the FD on. ;)

 

I have tried all the other modes though, and found that aerobatic maneuvers are possible in every mode aswell as with all AP off. But as said, flying with Bank & Pitch hold on is the most convenient to me personally.

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