rotor collision... what went wrong

[grandkodiak]

ive decided to devote more time to blackshark after pretty much getting tired of a10'ing almost every day for years now haha!

 

ive gotten down hovering and basic flight, its still jumpy but i think alot has to do with getting the axis's tuned right with dead spots and curve... and figuring out this horrible trim system (thank you russian engineers...)

 

anywho... i did a quick flight, daylight, no wind, with a few ground targets. i started off with a rolling takeoff cause ive never attempted one... it was rather easy. i set a hover a few times manually, played with turning, going sideways etc. then i set off to the field where i put some targets. i get into autohover to practice with the weapons. i take out a few with the gun and missles, and decide to come out of autohover and do a run in attack with rockets.

 

i lurch foward and gain some alititude, but it gets hairy and by the time i get strightened im too low and close to shoot the rockets, so i pull up, gain some altitude, slow down and begin to turn around. i get back on target, come up to speed in a shallow dive getting the nsoe back on the targets, then i get a warning, the thing goes all screwy, then i fall to the ground to a firey death.

 

i watch the replay from external and see that the bottom rotor disc rises violently between the 2 and 5 ocloack position in the disc, impacts the top rotor, and blasts apart, leaving me helpless to fall to the ground out of control.

 

what on earth happened? i dont think i was pushing its limits in any way, i watched in the cockpit and i didnt see any g over limits... only thing i forgot was to raise the gear haha...but i dont see how that would horrible distort the rotor disc flow!

 

comments, tips, suggestions, explinations as to what i might have done wrong?

[Frazer]

we are going to need your track to evaluate mate.....

[Nate--IRL--]

Low Rotor Rpm, excessive collective, excessive speed, too much right rudder or too much left bank, in no particular order, are what you want avoid.

 

Stay under 250kmh IAS and manoeuvre gently, maintaining high Rpm, and you should be ok.

 

Nate

 

Edit:- And welcome to the "Fiery Rotor-less Death" Club, we've all been there.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Nate--IRL--

[grandkodiak]

what entry speed would you be looking at to do a quick snap 180 turn after a run over a convoy say? ie. nose up to slow while max rudder to swing around to come in nose down back on target?

 

ive done the manuever plenty of times in msfs in the bell but the physics and realism between the two, not to mention the heli's themselves i dont is even ballpark haha... kinda like comparing a lotus elise on a track entry speed to an 18 wheeler on a jersey turnpike offramp on ice with bumper guides!

[Nate--IRL--]

To be honest I'm not sure, I sometimes do a vertical rudder turn with the full left rudder at 150kmh at about 70-80 degrees nose up. However in a hostile area this would be suicide.

 

To honest you just have experiment and crash, a lot. Experiment with The Flight Director and the other modes of the autopilot too.

 

Nate

Edited May 5, 2010 by Nate--IRL--

[EtherealN]

One thing - you can make extremely violent maneuvers in all directions, but you really REALLY need to dump collective flat out when you do that. I have myself done "fun" stuff like loopings, barrel rolls, immelmans and split-s with the Black Shark, but in these cases you really need to know exactly which commands you can do at which time; a combination of airspeed, high collective and right rudder is 100% certain to cause rotor disc intersection.

[Conuk]

care to post some tracks of how its done EthereaLN ? (rolls etc etc)

:)

 

would help us all out...

 

Even Frazer might jump in - im still watching your landing tracks in awe !

you spin that ka50 on a dime - awesome.

[TAIPAN_]

Also you don't need to set curves and dead zones. The chopper flys well using linear stick in my opinion.

 

Middle stick is not a hover or neutral so dead zone is not helpful and it hinders

making fine movements as you have to move past it first.

[Bucic]

Also you don't need to set curves and dead zones. The chopper flys well using linear stick in my opinion.

 

Middle stick is not a hover or neutral so dead zone is not helpful and it hinders

making fine movements as you have to move past it first.

 

True.

 

The dead zone should always be a last resort. It makes your stick resemble keyboard when using the range near the center position. Second - there is no intentional dead zone in real aircrafts.

 

In other words - if you really have to, set the curvature instead of dead zone. If you have to set dead zones to make your stick usable you are just Do yourself a favor and trash it already. You insult ED's work.

[Nate--IRL--]

True.

 

In other words - if you really have to, set the curvature instead of dead zone. If you have to set dead zones to make your stick usable you are just Do yourself a favor and trash it already. You insult ED's work.

 

Nonsense. Adjust the dead zone & curves to allow for fine control and to suit your preference, that's why its there. If you don't need to, fine. If you do need to, also fine.

 

Nate

[grandkodiak]

its near impossible to fly it without a dead zone, its all joystick hardware, the real blackshark probably isnt flown with a $20 piece of plastic with a spring and plastic bubble to center it :)

[EtherealN]

I fly just fine without a deadzone.

But my stick cost more than $20. ;)

(I use an x52 non-Pro that I got as a stopgap until I can lay my hands on the TM A10 stick.)

[Frederf]

The dead zone should be set first so that it covers all the "dead space" in the middle of joystick movement where you can let go and the spring doesn't move it to a new position. The more exact you are the more the spring tension and control input will match in game which gives a greater "one-ness" with the controls.

 

After that try curvature in small increments until small deflections are smooth and in control but not sluggish. You might have a strong curve when learning and then relax it to more linear as your experience grows; flavor to taste.

[Bucic]

Nonsense.

Which one? If you'll find some info about intentional dead zone in real ACs controls then I'll be very interested. Until this happens simple logic shows

 

no dead zone in reality should mean avoiding dead zone in game controllers OR there is no dead zone in reality for a reason *

 

and

 

curvature is a less intrusive method of dealing with game controllers faults

 

Plus you get the ability to set custom curvature in DCS and FC2. You propose a discrete transition, a bump around the neutral position instead of a smooth transition so it's "arguable" who talks nonsense here.

 

 

To be honest I'm not going to argue over this as I don't when someone claims 25 FPS is max what human eye can see or when someone claims Saitek Cyborg X is a neat piece of hardware. But I will always drop a heads up for those less experienced with controls setup who could absorb such misinformation without testing on their own.

 

 

* and the reason is not only potential risk of dangerous vibrations. Hell, even car safety regulations don't allow dead zone in steering wheels! :doh:

[JLZ]

If you have Extreme 3D logitech, you need to have dead-zone specified (or you have really light hand).

And one more tip (if you have 3D and Z axis problem): have hand on joy and than (re)plug it.

You will recalibrate it in way that with hand on joy all will be centered. Hand off joy - dead zone deal with offset. Overall you don't have situation where joy is more sensitive to left twist than to right and dead zone is halved.

[Huckle]

Nonsense. Adjust the dead zone & curves to allow for fine control and to suit your preference, that's why its there. If you don't need to, fine. If you do need to, also fine.

 

Nate

 

Exactly.

 

You paid for the game- why let others tell you how you'll play it?

[Bucic]

If you have Extreme 3D logitech, you need to have dead-zone specified (or you have really light hand).

And one more tip (if you have 3D and Z axis problem): have hand on joy and than (re)plug it.

You will recalibrate it in way that with hand on joy all will be centered. Hand off joy - dead zone deal with offset. Overall you don't have situation where joy is more sensitive to left twist than to right and dead zone is halved.

Good find!

 

I provided a simple setup procedure for catastrophic cases (like Logitech Wingman Extreme 3D) in the very same topic

In this case I recommend the following procedure of setting minimum desired dead zone:

1. Set deadzone to 0 on given axis

2. Launch a mission in BS and press Enter - RCtrl to get controls indicator.

3. Lay your hand on the stick in center position and observe the position marker.

4. If it jitters increase the deadzone by smallest ammount and check it again for jittering.

5. Stop increasing the dead zone as soon as you minimized the jittering.

 

 

Exactly.

 

You paid for the game- why let others tell you how you'll play it?

You're going to have really hard times on ED forums because it's crawling with experienced players "telling others how to play their game", and real pilots and engineers on this forum do this as well :megalol:

Edited May 6, 2010 by Bucic

[TAIPAN_]

Good find!

 

You're going to have really hard times on ED forums because it's crawling with experienced players "telling others how to play their game", and real pilots and engineers on this forum do this as well :megalol:

 

 

That's what forums are for, just eat up the advice, chew it, and if you don't like it spit it out :P

[Nate--IRL--]

Which one? If you'll find some info about intentional dead zone in real ACs controls then I'll be very interested.

 

When I start flying with Real Aircraft controls in DCS I shall think about removing the dead zone :)

 

Nate

[norm]

...and figuring out this horrible trim system (thank you russian engineers...)

 

Why does every one hate the trim system, I love it!

[EtherealN]

Not like western helicopters trim...

...oh wait... :D

[HitchHikingFlatlander]

Trims not bad or horrible once you learn to use it properly.

[sweinhart3]

Which one? If you'll find some info about intentional dead zone in real ACs controls then I'll be very interested. Until this happens simple logic shows

 

no dead zone in reality should mean avoiding dead zone in game controllers OR there is no dead zone in reality for a reason *

 

and

 

curvature is a less intrusive method of dealing with game controllers faults

 

Plus you get the ability to set custom curvature in DCS and FC2. You propose a discrete transition, a bump around the neutral position instead of a smooth transition so it's "arguable" who talks nonsense here.

 

 

To be honest I'm not going to argue over this as I don't when someone claims 25 FPS is max what human eye can see or when someone claims Saitek Cyborg X is a neat piece of hardware. But I will always drop a heads up for those less experienced with controls setup who could absorb such misinformation without testing on their own.

 

 

* and the reason is not only potential risk of dangerous vibrations. Hell, even car safety regulations don't allow dead zone in steering wheels! :doh:

 

Yes but they dont build cars and airplanes with slop in the control mechanisms either.

[Lava]

I love the trim, actually, it's very intuitive. I find it much easier to reach stable flight than by fiddling with little trim knobs on my joystick :)

[Bucic]

When I start flying with Real Aircraft controls in DCS I shall think about removing the dead zone :)

 

Nate

 

Yes but they dont build cars and airplanes with slop in the control mechanisms either.

You both are really focused on my "ant-deadzone crusade" :) instead of taking advantage of the info. For example the user curve allows you to set a smooth exit out of your dead zone or you can shape something in between vanilla curvature and vanilla dead zone. To put it shortly - you can shape the curve/line however you like with this feature.

 

Most game controllers mechanics are a mess, I know that. Former tampon designers are in every single game controllers manufacturer staff. Or just regular morons - take your pick :D But still any dead zone is not desirable and I showed you some alternative measures to deal with bad controller mechanics without it.