Case Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 For a flight simulation I think you rarely need to analyticly "solve them" (perhaps for computer control reasons such as FBW or intercept vector/inertial guidance), only formulate them. Then just use some step model to see "what happened next".Obviously, you probably couldn't even analytically solve them. But as you say I'd expect them to be numerically integrated. Hell, if the time steps are small enough, like the few tens of Hz in FC, simple Euler integration should be adequate enough, where in each time step the user input can be taken into account. The equations of motion probably are not all that hard. Does anyone have a reference besides the stuff on the lockon.co.uk site? There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobek Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 (remenber MATLAB? yuck). Well, MATLAB is cerntainly not meant to be resource optimised, it's for people who can't write code (like me :)). If you want to use your resources efficiently, you have to get on your knees and write it with something closer to the hardware. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RvEYoda Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 (edited) And let me add that I suspect it also doesnt apply when you do certain maneuvers such as knife passes. The perfomace charts are typicaly applicable when yout lift vector is perpendicular to the wing surface (i.e. pitch induced manuevers or simple straight flight). Same for boundary layer for divergent conditions (stall and high AOA) etc etc etc. Afaik Falcon doesnt model the rudder as a lift surface, only as something that can turn/yaw the aircraft. While this can be used to see basic turning perfomace differences in aircraft it fails to translate to actual flight in every thru its entire envelope in a credible way. In terms of acceleration/braking/speeds/turn rates/fuel consumption performance of F- 16 AF/OF has significantly better envelope coverage than flyable SFM planes in lockon (though Fc2 does even out things a bit), but of course has its own quirks. You have to find what suits you best. Remember Fc has got what is it, 5-7 planes to work on while Falcon only needs to fix the F-16? I find that the best way to become better is to learn from as many sources as possible. Obviously, you probably couldn't even analytically solve them. But as you say I'd expect them to be numerically integrated. Hell, if the time steps are small enough, like the few tens of Hz in FC, simple Euler integration should be adequate enough, where in each time step the user input can be taken into account. The equations of motion probably are not all that hard. Does anyone have a reference besides the stuff on the lockon.co.uk site? So we are on the same page :). (FC is 50 Hz btw) What I'm saying is you prob don't even need to integrate them at all. You just need to calculate one step every simulation frame unless you have some form of guidance system that requires an approximate extrapolated path (for example I wrote a program to predict the motion of a barrel roll). I guess indirectly "stepping" is equivalent of integrating, but you're not really integrating every frame afaik. (Well you could split each 1/50 part of a second into even smaller time steps and integrate that step...Not sure if that is actually being done, but I doubt it is necessary) Edited May 12, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Case Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 Not only that, it also destroyed CPU resources when running them for my projects (remember MATLAB? yuck). They actualy are harder to compute despite their simpler apearance.I vividly remember having to program a solar system integrator for physics classes. Especially the Runge-Kutta method was very much fun and enlightening to code. Sorry to digress... ;) There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotasso Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 No problem each had his experience. [sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic] My PC specs below:Case: Corsair 400C PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T) RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4 GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asparagin Posted May 12, 2010 Author Share Posted May 12, 2010 When only tables are used to represent the motion (spring or spring 4.0 :D) it is evident that rules of physics are violated. That is way this argument shouldn't be brought up. I think the expression flight on rails sums it really nice. Spoiler AMD Ryzen 9 5900X, MSI MEG X570 UNIFY (AM4, AMD X570, ATX), Noctua NH-DH14, EVGA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti XC3 ULTRA, Seasonic Focus PX (850W), Kingston HyperX 240GB, Samsung 970 EVO Plus (1000GB, M.2 2280), 32GB G.Skill Trident Z Neo DDR4-3600 DIMM CL16, Cooler Master 932 HAF, Samsung Odyssey G5; 34", Win 10 X64 Pro, Track IR, TM Warthog, TM MFDs, Saitek Pro Flight Rudders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RvEYoda Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 (edited) I vividly remember having to program a solar system integrator for physics classes. Especially the Runge-Kutta method was very much fun and enlightening to code. Sorry to digress... ;) We have a song at our UNI about RK because its name sounds a lot like something else in Swedish. It is about a person who can't get his 1st year mechanics courses right and ends up using RK with some mech program called "Sofia" or something like that. When only tables are used to represent the motion (spring or spring 4.0 :D) it is evident that rules of physics are violated. That is way this argument shouldn't be brought up. I think the expression flight on rails sums it really nice. Disagree. Someone has to find where the problem lies and understand what he needs to change to fix it. Can't just remove the rails, even if you feel like ur flying on rails :) Edited May 12, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asparagin Posted May 12, 2010 Author Share Posted May 12, 2010 Disagree. Someone has to find where the problem lies and understand what he needs to change to fix it. Can't just remove the rails, even if you feel like ur flying on rails :) So.. you disagree with what? Spoiler AMD Ryzen 9 5900X, MSI MEG X570 UNIFY (AM4, AMD X570, ATX), Noctua NH-DH14, EVGA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti XC3 ULTRA, Seasonic Focus PX (850W), Kingston HyperX 240GB, Samsung 970 EVO Plus (1000GB, M.2 2280), 32GB G.Skill Trident Z Neo DDR4-3600 DIMM CL16, Cooler Master 932 HAF, Samsung Odyssey G5; 34", Win 10 X64 Pro, Track IR, TM Warthog, TM MFDs, Saitek Pro Flight Rudders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobek Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 So.. you disagree with what? That this argument shouldn't be brought up, i guess? Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Case Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 I guess indirectly "stepping" is equivalent of integrating, but you're not really integrating every frame afaik. Yes, these 'steps' is essentially numerical integration. Because you are dealing with a differential equation, smaller time steps improve accuracy, so it might be beneficial to update the derivatives each time step. Still, does anyone have a document describing the differential equations that need to be solved? There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asparagin Posted May 12, 2010 Author Share Posted May 12, 2010 That this argument shouldn't be brought up, i guess? Ahh.. shouldn't be brought up as an argument because it is true per definition.. Spoiler AMD Ryzen 9 5900X, MSI MEG X570 UNIFY (AM4, AMD X570, ATX), Noctua NH-DH14, EVGA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti XC3 ULTRA, Seasonic Focus PX (850W), Kingston HyperX 240GB, Samsung 970 EVO Plus (1000GB, M.2 2280), 32GB G.Skill Trident Z Neo DDR4-3600 DIMM CL16, Cooler Master 932 HAF, Samsung Odyssey G5; 34", Win 10 X64 Pro, Track IR, TM Warthog, TM MFDs, Saitek Pro Flight Rudders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RvEYoda Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 Yes, these 'steps' is essentially numerical integration. Because you are dealing with a differential equation, smaller time steps improve accuracy, so it might be beneficial to update the derivatives each time step. Still, does anyone have a document describing the differential equations that need to be solved? I think they do. However I wonder if they further split each 1/50 step into even smaller steps when it comes to the FM. (1/50 is enough for let's say AI etc) S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Case Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 I think they do. However I wonder if they further split each 1/50 step into even smaller steps when it comes to the FM. (1/50 is enough for let's say AI etc)Would make sense, as they are probably not that computationally expensive as computing the full graphics frames. There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Case Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 alright....lets compare the constructs: Where's the comparison? It's just a load of numbers... There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.S Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 @Case: do you need anything else then numbers, or can you compare by just reading that? :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 Spam deleted. Next time, attach a file. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Case Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 @Case: do you need anything else then numbers, or can you compare by just reading that? :D Spam deleted. Next time, attach a file. That is what I was trying to convey to you. Thanks GG. There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.S Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 SPAM? ...oh great ..thx.... ..(you just deleted something you probably never had a chance to look into, cuz crypted...but oh well ..hehe) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 SPAM never tastes well AS. Seriously, next time, please attach a file instead :P It gets the point across just as well without having to scroll through pages upon pages of non-human-readable data. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.S Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 (edited) I just decided not to share.... if someone wants to look into with serious and honest intentions..he can pm me. (my bad, i should have sent those infos to someone, who can work with it like yo-yo rather then posting them publically for you all just to be bashed..oh well ..just shows once again....) Edited May 12, 2010 by A.S [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 (edited) Or you know, maybe they own a copy of AF already and you could have just pointed them to the given file as well. PS: FM tables in Falcon are 2 variables max. It doesn't matter that they have more numbers ... these are two completely different ways of building up an FM and you cannot directly compare them, in partciular in this case more data != better FM. Edited May 12, 2010 by GGTharos [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.S Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 .... You need something? ...ask next time :smilewink: PS: your attitude here and in HL due to your Moderator/Tester status is slowly getting out of hands [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 I think you misunderstand. There was no bashing. There was spamming. Like I said, you should have attached a file instead. Do you understand the difference, or no? Think a little about presentation. ;) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.S Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 if 4-5 posts with numbers (so everyone can see them) is spamming ....sorry then. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distiler Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 C'mon, not a big deal, he just asks instead of using numerous posts, just attach a .txt file. I also was a bit confused when I entered the thread, I though a bot was spamming the forum XD Let's continue the thread, it's interesting! AMD Ryzen 1400 // 16 GB DDR4 2933Mhz // Nvidia 1060 6GB // W10 64bit // Microsoft Sidewinder Precision 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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