help with approach scenario

[xracer]

ok i have done my mission tasks and i am on my way to the landing airport in which i use the PVI-800 and the autopilot. The problem is that i cant see more than 10 meters in front of me and thats also the visual at the airport. What instrument settings do i do and how do i get to the correct side of the runway and hit straight on the middle of the runway when going in for landing?

[winz]

You can use NDBs (if the airport you are approaching have them), for the initial fix. But the final has to be visual. You can try your luck with blind navigating using PVI, ABRIS, Radar alt, but I really doubt that's standard procedure ;)

[xracer]

You can use NDBs (if the airport you are approaching have them), for the initial fix. But the final has to be visual. You can try your luck with blind navigating using PVI, ABRIS, Radar alt, but I really doubt that's standard procedure ;)

 

Hehe..thanks i guess with those visuals they have to use an alternative airport with better circumstances if the fuelload is good enough ;)

[Frederf]

If you want to go full real then follow the NDB approach plate for that airport/runway. VOR/ILS would be nice but the Ka-50 doesn't carry it.

 

If you just want to wing it then one could navigate to the outer NDB using the ADF and then go direct to the inner NDB at the airfield continuing in that line to the runway. A typical "full" NDB setup on a runway would be an inner and outer NDB for each approach direction but they only run one pair at a time based on the landing runway direction.

 

If your NDBs aren't in the default channel listing they can be set with the *ARK*.lua file. Inner/outer switch is in the center stack at the bottom. I never got the auto position of the I/O switch to do anything meaningful.

 

In addition to or in lieu of NDBs, you can set the HSI track to the runway heading with the HSI in manual mode so you know when you are lined up with the runway. A PVI point at the runway threshold combined with the HSI-manual-runway-track can give good path/direction information.

 

Really fancy would be to have 2 adjacent WPT PVI points (say one over the outer NDB and one at the threshold) along the approach path and use the DT position of the DH-DT switch to keep you on track. One could even engage the route autopilot doing this.

[xracer]

Thanks Frederf, many good suggestions again! gonna try out some approaches. After all even if BS is a primarily combat simulator, they say The engaging of the enemy is often only a small piece of the mission and if u can't find your way around the battle area safely your not much of a pilot either. ;)

[bogusheadbox]

If you want to go full real then follow the NDB approach plate for that airport/runway. VOR/ILS would be nice but the Ka-50 doesn't carry it.

 

Why you would carry out an NDB proceedure in a helicopter is a bit lost to me (A hold entry, hold, outbound to intercept the final approach track). Totally not needed as a helicopter can sustain hover.

 

All you need is the final approach track from a beacon to centreline, an MDA (Minimum descent altitude for safety).

 

Fly overhead beacon descending to MDA. Track outbound from beacon on final approach track at MDA. wait until visual. If not visual perform go-around to alternate.

[Frederf]

Well, in real life because (I think) an approved approach is the only legal way to land under certain weather conditions. The FAA (or Ru equivalent) would hardly be impressed that you made up your own approach, no matter how clever or practical. Besides, a lot of an approach is designed with the idea that there are other aircraft in the skies.

 

Keeping speed up is nice because it uses less fuel and makes the transition to autorotation much safer in the event of an engine failure.

[EtherealN]

Well, why you do those things on a helo is that most of the time it's not only helicopters that operate in and around a particular aerodrome. You're not alone in the skies, so everyone follows the same rules (with a few exceptions, hot-air balloons have right of way and so on :P ).

 

Though there are cases where you can theoretically get permission to "do your own thing" - you'd request a straight-in approach and then you don't have to line up quite as regularly, but you still need to follow all safety procedures and it's still a CTR zone. They'd probably still be unimpressed (to say the least) if you went in over the terminal building to set down directly on the apron, though.

 

In aviation the chant is safety-safety-safety. And doing things "your own way" is a great way to confuse other people and even if you do fine that confusion might cause them to not do fine.

[bogusheadbox]

To reply to both Frederf and Ethereal

 

(i was not flaming on my reply in case my tone came accross that way, and my best guest there was some misconstrument of my previous post. I was of course refering to a full proceedure)

 

I have never heard or shared a (full) proceedure with a helicopter from large airports that have active helicopter movements.

 

Fixed wing follow a proceedure because we cannot hover so we have a "mapped out" safety path in the sky that guarantees us (despite pilot best efforts to the contrary) a safe forward path through the sky.

 

(some proceedures have different tracks to cater for different categories of plane)

 

However, all helicopters i have encountered do not follow these paths. I also beleive (I am not rated on helos) that their ruling for minimums is in sight of surface only for VFR, where due to the forward velocity of a fixed wing, we are limited to a visual/RVR minima for both IFR and VFR

 

All helicopters that i encounter share a reporting point that they manouver to below fixed wing proceedure height and then cleared to transit the aerodrome boundary. I certainly have not shared a proceedure with a helo nor know anyone that has (maybe i am missing out)

 

I would also assume therefore that due very poor vis in IFR where a beacon is required to navigate to a runway that a helo would complete the task i mentioned earlier which is to track direct to a beacon or a DME distance to/from a beacon, not below their MSA and then track inbound/outbound on beacon to the MDA/DA (do helicopters do ILS approaches ?) on the final approach track (like the final segament of a fixed wing proceedure) therefore ensuring safety.

 

There is (in my mind and from what i have whitnessed) absolutely no need for a helicopter to perform the inbound and outbound leg of a hold, then beacon outbound to base turn just to trundle in on the final approach track. Us fixed wing guys do this cause we can't hover.

 

Unless i am mistaken of course (which i quite rightly could be) but i have never seen it.

 

Just as an edit. Proceedures are designed for purpose taking into consideration of other people in the sky. That is why they have a hold, a minimum commencement altitude and descent to base turn.

Edited June 1, 2010 by bogusheadbox

[EtherealN]

Well, my experience differs, though at my home plate we do not have any "steady" helicopter operator. Aerodromes with steady operations of one or other type may very well have local rules set up - I operate under a set of local rules that for example causes IFR traffic to not make the standard right-turn out when on the go-around, the go-around procedure at our plate is to continue directly ahead and wait for directions from the tower.

 

Similarly, any "default" height separation and so on does not work at smaller aerodromes, either, since that's where you usually run into people who operate sports aircraft, ultra-lights, gliders and sometimes even balloons. Maneuvering to a point "below" fixed-wing proceedure height here and thinking that this is safe would be a sure way towards a foxtour, since you can have pretty much anything at the 300-750m AGL limit (the area below terminal outside of the CTR). The gliders are not likely to be there of course, but the Cessna traffic is another matter. And flying below 300m AGL is prohibited in built-up areas so you can't go there either - 100m AGL works over the forests and grasslands out in the TMA, but that's where the ultralights like to go for their sight-seeing.

 

So, to operate a helicopter safely in traffic there is no reason not to follow the same procedure as everyone else. (Excluding the IFR jets and turboprop liners, they turn final before they even enter the CTR.)

 

Additionaly, low flight in the CTR can in many areas cause a great risk of not getting radar coverage. We have that issue since the radar that the tower has to work with is actually placed very far from the aerodrome and does not have coverage at really low altitudes due to intervening terrain. Once again it becomes safer to just operate standard procedure.

 

Now, obviously, a lot of these variables can change depending on aerodrome. An aerodrome that has a highly active chopper club would be likely to set up local guidelines to help the tower handle things smoothly. But these would actually be exceptions - it's just that they are a very common type of exception.

[Avilator]

do helicopters do ILS approaches ?

Some more well-equipped helicopters certinaly can.

I think it all depends upon what speed the helicopter can maintain when it comes to sharing airspace.

At my home airport, U.S. Army Blackhawks sometimes practice full ILS approaches, complete with go-arounds. They don't have any trouble keeping up with the majority of the traffic at my airport (mostly pistons, some bizjets) because they can maintain 120-140 knots.

[EtherealN]

Same as Avilator - at a few times the army heli regiments have "borrowed" our airspace for ILS practice, and they fly generally identical patters as would a fixed-wing when they do so. However, that's special training for them since these guys usually operate from pads and FARPs.

[bogusheadbox]

Sorry to be pedantic, i am just curious. So you are saying that helos where you are, will do a full NDB DME proceedure, which constitutes the following.

 

1.Flying to the beacon at a designated height. Then

2.fly an oval pattern (hold),

3.then track outbound for a set DME,

4.complete a base turn onto the FAT (Final approach track)?

 

Bogus

[EtherealN]

As far as I've been able to discern through listening in on the radio when the army choppers are visiting - yes.

 

There is a caveat to it though - they were there specifically for an exercise and borrowed our airspace since it's calmer. It is possible that this is not their standard procedure when operating at their home airbase, but were there to practice it anyway since it's "good stuff". I don't have the army aviation SOP docs so I cannot verify, I can only say "what I saw".

Edited June 2, 2010 by EtherealN

[Avilator]

Sorry to be pedantic, i am just curious. So you are saying that helos where you are, will do a full NDB DME proceedure, which constitutes the following.

 

1.Flying to the beacon at a designated height. Then

2.fly an oval pattern (hold),

3.then track outbound for a set DME,

4.complete a base turn onto the FAT (Final approach track)?

 

Bogus

The NDB procedures I am familiar with (American) don't all have the steps you describe. Flying the hold and outbound pattern is called a procedure turn, and is usually used when the aircraft approaches from a direction where a turn to final is too tight to be practical or possible. (greater than 90 degrees, usually).

That aside, NDB DMEs are very rare (at least in North America) and approach procedures based on them are even more rare. I was speaking of an ILS approach at my airport, which does not require a procedure turn(some ILSs do, but not this one).

[Frederf]

I can't imagine a Ka-50 being any more inconvenienced by IFR procedures than a C712. If ATC makes a C172 do it, Ka-50 pilot can't complain.

 

Most of the IFR approaches for helicopters are GNSS-type which the ABRIS should be capable of if its ever programmed with approaches. There are some NDB, VOR, ILS, etc ones as well. These are rare and when not available the standard fixed wing category A approaches apply. There's the chance to cut the minimums by half from that with a minimum restriction (1/4SM, 1200' RVR). The helicopter has to adhere to the category A speed specification on the final approach portion or otherwise be subjected to the visibility requirements of higher categories.

 

There are maximum speeds of 70 kts in the flight close to touch down and possibly 90 kts in holds. Bank angles and heading rates are restricted in most phases of the approach.

 

On the flip side there are aircraft-specific maximum gradients (~4-8°) for decent and minimum speeds in IMC (~40-70 kts.) Thus there is not a lot of wiggle room for pilot preference when it comes to the speed and angle profile.

 

That's all FAA stuff that doesn't necessarily apply to Sochi in Russia, nevermind the Russian military operations. It's still a good start.

 

I don't mean to discourage people from being clever and using "field expedient" methods to land in poor weather in DCS:BS. It's much better to have a fictional, practical system than none at all. A lot of the "true IFR" stuff requires radar contact and ATC assistance which is just plain not there in DCS.

 

EDIT: Trying not to sound like a know-it-all. I'm learning this stuff about 5 minutes ahead of telling it! I just ran an approach in the editor with a cloud layer from 400-800m density 7 and then fog density 5 from 450m to the floor. It was a pain! But very fun! Using the I-O NDBs for approach is also no fun as the switch for I-O is hard to reach right when you want to flip it. The auto position never changes from O to I.

 

I can see why minimum speeds are smart now. Keeping the speed up helps keep the aircraft's nose aligned with the aircraft's track. Dipping below 100 kmph made it very easy to wander. If ABRIS's VNAV worked properly it would really help nail a constant descent rate. Stepping down, readjusting the RALT bug, etc is a lot of work. Two waypoints (say over O and I) and the PVI in D-T mode has got to be the most precise, least-stressful way to make an approach in poor conditions. I guess a helpful mission maker could provide a separate flight plans for approaches in the flight plan list.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Frederf

[bogusheadbox]

The NDB procedures I am familiar with (American) don't all have the steps you describe. Flying the hold and outbound pattern is called a procedure turn, and is usually used when the aircraft approaches from a direction where a turn to final is too tight to be practical or possible. (greater than 90 degrees, usually).

That aside, NDB DMEs are very rare (at least in North America) and approach procedures based on them are even more rare. I was speaking of an ILS approach at my airport, which does not require a procedure turn(some ILSs do, but not this one).

 

Ahhh thanks Ethereal very interesting.

 

@ Avilator

Not flown america, but here in EU and various countries in the southern hemisphere, NDB's are very common.

 

For us here in EU, the hold pattern is also a mandatory part of the NDB or proceedural ILS unless you approach the beacon within 30 degrees of the outbound track.

 

That is why i was confused by helcopters doing "the full" proceedure as a helicopter can negate of lot of that without comprimising safety (of course with an air traffic service permission in controlled airspace) to fly to and orientate onto the final approach track.

 

Maybe it is common for helicopters to do this in other countries.

 

 

This has turned out to be a very intersting discussion, so thank you to all for your input.

[Avilator]

This has turned out to be a very intersting discussion, so thank you to all for your input.

No problem!:thumbup:

[Zenra]

Ahhh thanks Ethereal very interesting.

 

[...snip...]

 

This has turned out to be a very intersting discussion, so thank you to all for your input.

I just wanted to add that I found this discussion very interesting as well. I also fly a lot of FSX and enjoy practicing many different approach procedures, particularly in more complex aircraft. As I started flying the Shark I have naturally been trying to incorporate realistic practices for returning to base following missions. It is nice to learn that helicopters are often required to fly by the plates - makes me feel more like I have a reason for adding such procedures to my missions.

 

Using the ABRIS with waypoints set up at the Outer Marker and on the runway (e.g., at the TDZ), you can use ABRIS in VOR mode much like you would the HSI in a general aviation craft. I have not tried holds or procedure turns yet, but I do often fly the "large" pattern as described in section 10 of the manual. Will appreciate any more insight into military approach procedures for helicopters as well if anyone here has such knowledge.

[VS461]

Hi Bogus,

 

sorry for chipping on the thread. I am flying Russian-made choppers without ILS, DME or VOR. We have only ADF stuff on-board with radio altimeter. So, we are practicing full NDB approaches, and preparing to do it everywhere according to the AIPs.

 

If an aerodrome issues its approach procedures, it means that everyone who wants or accidentally happens to fly in, must follow these. If this aerodrome has a terminal and/or approach radar (or radar info), which they can use for separation either in IMC, the APP can vector evy aircraft on different flight paths if necessary: for example, helos don't need to fly "full" approaches and can be inserted into the gaps between fixed wing traffic. If I have to alternate to an int'l aerodrome with a big pile of heavy traffic in IMC, I'll probably be vectored although I know and can use the NDB stuff.

 

But if our aerodrome has no terminal radar information, they can't ensure IFR separation. In these cases (which are far more often), every aircraft must follow the issued procedures. Either if I am with a helo or not, I must use my approach plates. These are developed for all the approach speed categories, so for helos as well. The APP can maintain separation by requiring mandatory reports over fixes, using holding patterns, altitude separation etc., so they can handle a Big Mac and a JetRanger in the same time.

 

And one more thing: I heard a story about a, well, fixed-wingie commander who said: who cares about helos in IMC in this airbase? They can hover over the runway and descend below the clouds to the ground... No. A simple helo (no Doppler, no GNSS) has no instrument to get into hover in IMC, and even with these stuff, it is hard to maintain your hover within the clouds. Try it with BS but turn off the HUD.

Helos also shouldn't decelerate under a specific airspeed during an IFR approach. Although they won't stall and fall down but the helo will be less stable around her axes (and unstable according to airspeed), more and more handjob :D will be necessary to maintain the attitude (and the approach path), and the loss of sensing your attitude often happens. Not a good feeling IRL... That means, in IMC, that helos have to be handled as a fixed wing stuff but with less airspeed.

 

Sorry again for chipping on, but I think I should write these.

Cheers!

[miguez]

Great discussion guys. To add a bit more. Here in the US there are even special "COPTER" approach plates, to be used during IFR, and only by helicopters. They come in all flavors, ILSs, LOCs, NDBs, RNAVs. Check out this ILS and LOC into Washington's Ronald Reagan.

[EtherealN]

Helos also shouldn't decelerate under a specific airspeed during an IFR approach. Although they won't stall and fall down but the helo will be less stable around her axes (and unstable according to airspeed), more and more handjob

 

Thanks for your input. I'll make a small addition to the above: there is also the issue of wanting to stay out of the "dead man's envelope" - essentially you want to be sure you are not going to risk a Rotor Vortex Ring entry. Entering a rotor vortex ring at high altitude isn't so bad - you can get out of it. Entering at very very low altitude (5m AGL and such) isn't too bad either - if you're lucky there won't even be any damage.

 

...entering it at 30m AGL is a whole lot more dangerous, since it's high enough to let you hit the ground with considerable force, but not high enough to give you time to exit the ring and level back out.

[VS461]

Well, and simply imagine a vortex ring state during an IMC approach... loss of attitude sensing. I think AGL ain't a factor here... as my cdr said: dural rain happens...

[bumfire]

I dont know how its done everywhere else, but at my local airport, Aberdeen they have loads of helo traffic for the Oilrigs and the helos take exactly the same route as planes, also the same height as I live under the approach and although its noisy, as far as I can tell, helo's do the same as everyone else.

 

The ONLY helos that I have noticed that do things differently are the RAF search and Rescue birds, as they fly over my house on its way to and from the airport and hospital, but they take a diagonal route instead of the normal approach that planes and Oilrig helos take.

Edited June 5, 2010 by bumfire