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Avoiding fighters


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Hi guys,

 

I've just spent a frustrating evening getting knocked out of the sky by Su-27s on the 104th's server. At the weekend, someone suggested that staying below 200 knots and 30 feet was enough to help avoid detection, but I flew at 160 knots and ~15ft and was still nailed repeatedly by Su-27s.

 

Has anyone got any tips for avoiding detection by fighters when you're in the Ka-50?

 

Cheers

 

Pizzi

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160 knots, no. (In fact, you'll have overspeed warnings at that speed. ;) )

160 kilometres per hour - yes, most of the time it will make you extremely hard to pick up on radar. At that speed it does depend on aspect, though. 160km/h towards or away from the radar emitter will have you visible, 160km/h perpendicular to the radar emitter's scan cone will have you hidden. 130km/h or less will hide you almost irrespective of aspect.

 

The phenomenon is called the "look-down clutter notch" - when you advance/retreat with less than ~130km/h compared to the ground, a radar looking down on you will have severe difficulty distinguishing your radar return from the return of the ground behind you, and you'll be filtered.

 

In real life, this is impossible for a helicopter vs a modern radar since the doppler return of the spinning rotor blades is great enough to keep you out of the notch even if you are sitting parked on the ground (but with rotors spinning). This is not implemented in FC2 though and going low-and-slow will hide you very effectively.

 

Note however that this applies only to radar. Fighters with EOS (MiG-29 and Su-27) could still pick your thermal signature up and launch T's, ET's and 73's on you, though I'm unsure of which range.


Edited by EtherealN

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I think that in RL helicopters use simpler methods to remain undetected. To anyone that has the spare time and "courage", read below :

 

REAL LIFE

 

Flying low between mountains/hills is the simplest but best way. At all times the helicopter pilot and tacticians will have to plan routes accordingly in order to keep a low profile and not to attract the attention of enemy fighters and anti-air defenses. Attack helicopters are depending heavily on the terrain morphology.

 

Apart from this, attack helicopters, being deployed from FARPs, are usually quite close to the front-line. They can go in and get out quite fast. Their attacks(performed by well trained pilots) usually takes only a little time, given that the helicopter pilot followed a stealthy route to get in and out, so the enemy has a rather narrow time "window" to detect them and react .

 

In RL there is one gold rule... you never deploy a helicopter if the enemy has established air superiority, even temporarily. If enemy fighters overfly the target area or patrol in close proximity the helicopter would be in grave danger. So it would be better to stay on the ground!

 

Russian Army doctrine, in particular, wants all army branches to work close together, covering each other. This means that Ka-50 would be deployed close to their lines(when not in covert op's) where SAMs would discourage enemy fighters to hunt it down freely.

 

Even in worst case the helicopter pilot will be warned about possible threats in the surrounding area from friendly radars and flying aircraft. He never flies depending only on his eyes and the protection of God.

 

IN GAME

 

Some of the above can't be guaranteed or followed for many reasons while in game. The best way to stay out of harm's way is what Ethereal suggested(given the doppler effect won't be modeled accurately any time soon), fly between hills and mountains while the area is not overflown by fighters and having a friend watching your "back".


Edited by isoul
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Great post isoul,

Definately comprimises have to be made "in game", by the mission designers... it is a very new thing trying to find "balance" between rotary / a2g ops, and a2a ops...

 

Realism, in most cases, needs to take a back seat to generality.. the missions have to be playable by 2 people or 40 people, and those people can be flying anything from a KA50 for an F15 ... very broad scope!

 

The Best answer , is to allways INSIST on top cover, and get a radr upstairs working with you, and warning you when to to go ground / hide.

 

If you cannot get top cover, then perhaps you need to BE that top cover instead ;)

 

Enjoy though, I thjink as newer and newer missions come out, we are all learning how to "play together" (see how I used quotation marks, and isoul used bold, lol) ...

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160 knots, no. (In fact, you'll have overspeed warnings at that speed. ;) )

160 kilometres per hour

 

Eep! Horrible n00b error. Thanks for the correction. :)

 

Thanks, also, for all of the input, guys. I was kind of aware that the main thrust of the answers was going to be "make sure you've got air cover", but I figured there might be some ways to make myself less conspicuous. Seems like EtherealN's observations are pretty much what I was looking for.

 

My most surreal moment last night was being down in the weeds at about 15m and suddenly seeing a trail of missile smoke go past the left side of the cockpit about 6 inches from the glass. My first, rather confused, reaction was "Did I just launch a missile by accident?". Just as I was thinking that, I realised I was head-to-head with an Su-27. It filled my windshield, fired a burst of cannon and was gone before I'd fully registered what had just happened. From start to finish, the entire encounter seemed to last about 2-3 seconds. Things happen fast on the 104th... :)

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I can't help but wonder if an AWACS module for dcs wouldn't just be the cats meow... It would be great if ka50 could at least be warned of fighters in the Area so they could hide. I wonder how it could be done

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Ugh, an Su-27 down there with you Pizzicato? I hope that guy enjoys jamming his own radar, because that's what he will do down that low as the radar interacts with the ground. Yes, that is modeled.

 

A fighter, especially an air superiority fighter, shouldn't even be low enough to fire a heater on you. Well, exception for the ET. I hate the ET.

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Eep! Horrible n00b error. Thanks for the correction. :)

 

Thanks, also, for all of the input, guys. I was kind of aware that the main thrust of the answers was going to be "make sure you've got air cover", but I figured there might be some ways to make myself less conspicuous.

 

Fly slower, like EtherealN said. That'll keep you from being detected by radar until about 10km. EOS detection is similar, that means you have a lot of 'stealth' advantages.

 

Your next task is taking advantage of them, namely getting in behind terrain features to visually mask your helicopter from 'those who fly like the french'. Before you even do that, you must select an attack position that will be as much out of the way of enemy patrols as possible. I deally you don't want to just waltsz into the middle of the target area and start shooting - that's where EVERYONE expects you to be. Try coming in from the flanks.

 

Finally, spend less time than you normally do on your targets. Who cares if you didn't use up all your ammo? Spend 1 min shooting then 2 min moving to a new shooting location. Too lazy to do it? Tough ;)

 

 

My most surreal moment last night was being down in the weeds at about 15m and suddenly seeing a trail of missile smoke go past the left side of the cockpit about 6 inches from the glass. My first, rather confused, reaction was "Did I just launch a missile by accident?". Just as I was thinking that, I realised I was head-to-head with an Su-27. It filled my windshield, fired a burst of cannon and was gone before I'd fully registered what had just happened. From start to finish, the entire encounter seemed to last about 2-3 seconds. Things happen fast on the 104th... :)

If you had picked him up earlier you could have gunned him right back. The best way to attack a chopper is boom-and-zoom ... even with an A-10, it's just plain likely that the Ka-50 pilot will not have a chance to see who's attacking him unless he keeps clearing his airspace, and even then ...
Edited by GGTharos

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A fighter, especially an air superiority fighter, shouldn't even be low enough to fire a heater on you. Well, exception for the ET. I hate the ET.

 

 

Indeed, they shouldn't, BUT we all know they are. I'm begining to think those pesky lock-on players ignore all the normal fighter tactics and procedures simply in order to give me a brain hemmorage every time I fly.

 

I had the same problem this weekend on the 104th server, despite doing all of the things already stated above I still got shot down a few times by airquakers flying down in the weeds launching SRAAMs and hot metal death at me.

 

I have however found a solution to this problem, when a figher is overhead, fly to the nearest bridge and hide underneath it (there are a few in the AO on the mission currently running on the 104th's server), it works a treat. Them fighter type can fly around all day and they won't get ya. Of course, you do have to pay attention to what you're doing to ensure you don't do what I did and fly into the bridge and bring yourself down while being "clever" and opening a beer.

 

Just keep hoping that one day in the not too distant future we get DCS:Multirole Fighter and either lock-on is no longer online compatible and/or us procedure loving, checklist obsessed, teamwork addicted study simmers can show 'em how it's really done.

 

Edit: P.S. I'm at work and bored, hence the ramble :D

 

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Ok, I see public volunteer #1 for receiving GBU in the face (or bridge) here ... ;)

 

Just keep hoping that one day in the not too distant future we get DCS:Multirole Fighter and either lock-on is no longer online compatible and/or us procedure loving, checklist obsessed, teamwork addicted study simmers can show 'em how it's really done.

 

Edit: P.S. I'm at work and bored, hence the ramble :D

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Ok, I see public volunteer #1 for receiving GBU in the face (or bridge) here ... ;)

 

You've got to find me first:thumbup:.

 

Well, until I get my hands on the A-10C, at which point you'll never see me in one of those fugly choppers again, and I'll be the one dropping the GBUs on to unsuspecting chopper pilots.:megalol:

 

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With a DCS fighter? What could be easier? ;)

 

You've got to find me first:thumbup:.

 

Well, until I get my hands on the A-10C, at which point you'll never see me in one of those fugly choppers again, and I'll be the one dropping the GBUs on to unsuspecting chopper pilots.:megalol:

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On the 104th server last night - i forgot the most important rule of all fast jets are called that for a reason, they are quick. Something we forget about when we are buzzing the hedges.

 

I was locking up AA and i noticed a little bit of dirt in the top corner of my monitor. When i moved my head, it moved too. SH&T its a bogey. I key my mic and report its presence - all the while pulling into the hover to confuse his radar.

 

I unkey the mic and look round to where he was, Gone! - Wohooo i foxed him.

 

Then i look the other way (back to my targets)

 

Black shape,

 

Dead.

 

In the time it took me to key up - and inform my teammates, he had over flown me - turned, found me on his optics and locked me.

 

The rest, is a mangled mess.

 

now for a 30 minutes flight back to the firing line :(

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With a DCS fighter? What could be easier? ;)

 

Hang on, you seriously think that when we get DCS fighter, or even A-10C for that matter, I'll be caught dead in some butt ugly, slow, obsolete chopper. Not a chance in hell, not even if you paid me in 19 year old sweedish blondes (well maybe if you paid me in 19 year old sweedish blondes, but nothing less).

 

I'm far more likely to be found lugging half a dozen Mk-82 AIRs 100nm+ beyond the FLOT in order to do a perfectly planned popup attack on an enemy airfield and blow those pesky Migs to hell before they even get airborne.:joystick:

 

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@Eddie :

 

Mate you can't expect DCS and FC2.0 take a step backwards! You can't negate the compatibility of these two products because Su-27s and F-15s are on top of the "food-chain". People tend to like the role of the hunter better than the role of the prey.

 

So what if DCS:Multi-role Fighter ever come true? Most people will go for the multi-role fighter and all together will hunt down the poor Shark. You admit that for yourself above!

 

Attack helicopters have better chances to survive in RL than in the virtual DCS/FC2.0 environment. In our virtual environment you may have 39 F-15/Su-27 pilots flying over the same target area and 1 poor Ka-50 trying to reach it. In RL this would never happen!

 

As nemesis posted on page#1 these are necessary mission design compromises that must be there in order missions to be fun for all.

 

Get along with it mate... unless someone manages to create a simulation that models, apart from aircraft buttons and behavior, real military tactics and the various limitations in unit deployment on the battlefield... this won't change any time soon.


Edited by isoul
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In that case, I can still find you with an FC2 fighter. Really, not that hard, just have to play your cards right ;)

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@Eddie :

 

Mate you can't expect DCS and FC2.0 take a step backwards! You can't negate the compatibility of these two products because Su-27s and F-15s are on top of the "food-chain". People tend to like the role of the hunter better than the role of the prey.

 

So what if DCS:Multi-role Fighter ever come true? Most people will go for the multi-role fighter and all together will hunt down the poor Shark. You admit that for yourself above!

 

Attack helicopters have better chances to survive in RL than in the virtual DCS/FC2.0 environment. In our virtual environment you may have 39 F-15/Su-27 pilots flying over the same target area and 1 poor Ka-50 trying to reach it. In RL this would never happen!

 

As nemesis posted on page#1 these are necessary mission design compromises that must be there in order missions to be fun for all.

 

Get along with it mate... unless someone manages to create a simulation that models, apart from aircraft buttons and behavior, real military tactics and the various limitations in unit deployment on the battlefield... this won't change any time soon.

 

You're preaching to the chior dude. Besides all of the above is perfectly possible now, I just don't think it's going to happen on public servers. But don't take my previous posts at all seriously, I didn't.:thumbup:

 

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I dont care what happens - me and my 50 are staying together - im never leaving her, Ever.

 

Not even for a shiny A-10.

 

Eddie - ill take those 19yo blonds off your hands if you want?

 

Good to hear someone will be, I'll need someone in a chopper to fly AFAC in co-op CAS missions. I'm really looking forward to flying overhead and dropping GBU-12s on any SHORAD threat so the Sharks can go in an mop up, hopefully it won't be to far away.

 

Going back to the original topic, I think the most helpful thing you can do to improve your survival chances is to connect to the comms server provided by whomever runs the game server you're playing on. There are still a lot of people out there on the 104th and other public servers who don't do this for whatever reason. You really can't underestimate how much listening in to the comms from the fighters overhead, as well as the other sharks will improve your SA, not to mention being able to scream and beg on comms for fighter cover gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling, even if it isn't always very effective.

 

It's just a real pity the Shark has no Bullseye display (nor do the FC2 jets really, just workarounds using waypoints and 3rd party tools) nor do the FC2 jets have any ability to imput co-ordindates given my shark pilots. If we had those, life would be so much easier.

 

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... not in something so ulgy it gets repelled from the ground you won't :D

 

Eddie - ill take those 19yo blonds off your hands if you want?

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By the way... in my short service in the army aviation (don't get too excited I was a signaler!) I remember that in "Operations Room" of the brigade there were some monitors showing what is happening in the air all over the country.

 

This image was taken from air force's radars and was represented graphically on the monitors. So... I believe that in war time the Operations Room could inform any helicopter pilot of the situation in the air, who is who up there, where he is and where he is going(with speed, altitude, heading etc ).

 

Wouldn't it be possible that the Ka-50 pilot could contact the ATC and request "picture"?

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