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FF Rudder Pedals


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I was visiting the Thrustmaster website to check on any new information that might be available about the A-10 HOTAS. While I was there I decided to check out the racing wheels (another hobby of mine, if you play GTR2 or GRID let me know). I read that the pedals use "Magnetic Resistance". I was thinking "Why don't they use that to simulate force feedback in rudder pedal?". So............ why don't they use that technology to simulate force feedback in rudder pedals? Would that even work? Let me know what you guys think.

I need, I need, I need... What about my wants? QuickSilver original.

"Off with his job" Mr Burns on the Simpsons.

"I've seen steering wheels / arcade sticks / flight sticks for over a hundred dollars; why be surprised at a 150 dollar item that includes the complexities of this controller?! It has BLINKY LIGHTS!!" author unknown.

 

 

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I think magnetic resistance puts a field through some iron filings suspended in a fluid that changes its viscosity so its ability to be pushed through a hole between two chambers. That's at least how some luxury car strut dampers work. Either that or there's the Lenz's Law method where pushing a magnet through a coil sets up a current in the coil which creates an opposing magnet field and the magnet is damped in motion.

 

Either method is a form of friction where the resisting force is derived from the input force.

 

Force Feedback on the other hand is not a friction but a plain ol' kick. If you hook up a current to a coil a magnet inside will undergo a force to leave it, a.k.a. a solenoid. I'm not sure what amount of electricity would be required to make such a solenoid provide a resistance of the x Newtons enough to give proper pedal feedback. It could noticeably increase one's electric bill I haven't done the quick math.

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Hmmm... I think the racing wheels are FFB, but not their pedals. I haven't heard of any pedals on consumer grade FFB steering wheel controllers being FFB.

 

As for getting FFB on rudder pedals...

 

I was going to tie an old set of TM RCS pedals to a Saitek R660 FFB wheel to make FFB rudder pedals for trim on DCS:BS. I never got around to finishing it, after reading Triggerhappy's report on how DCS:BS would do either FFB based trim on the cyclic, or the rudder pedals, but not both simultaneously.

 

TriggerHappy has switched to working on an electro-mechanical braking system to handle the force trim simulation, and I think he is on to a better approach with that. See also Loubial's thread on what he is doing.

 

If you are seeking FFB for some other purpose in DCS, I don't know what it would do for you. DCS:BS doesn't give you special effects through FFB. It remains to be seen what DCS:A10C will or won't use FFB for.

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I believe TM uses the magnet to produce more relistic brake feel. But the TM are not that great of wheels/pedals. The top dogs in the pro sim racing are the Fanatec GT3RS with Clubsport pedals and the Logitech G25/27. Many Logitech users also get the Fanatec Club Sport pedals. That is what 80-90% of the pro sim racers are using unless the go full custom set ups that cost over $2000 for wheel, pedals, and custom shifter.

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Well Frederf I was thinking more of a fixed magnet on one side (say the underside of the pedal since it moves) and an electro magnet on the other side (in the base). You would have a voltage regulator that would control the strength of the elecro magnets. I would'nt want something that was TOO powerful. That could cause injury. But this set up could create variable resistance and that "kick" I think you were talking about. Also, I'm a little confused by that statement. My FF stick gives variable resistance. Are you thinking of FF as a rumble? A rumble is not true FF.


Edited by ZQuickSilverZ

I need, I need, I need... What about my wants? QuickSilver original.

"Off with his job" Mr Burns on the Simpsons.

"I've seen steering wheels / arcade sticks / flight sticks for over a hundred dollars; why be surprised at a 150 dollar item that includes the complexities of this controller?! It has BLINKY LIGHTS!!" author unknown.

 

 

These titles are listed in the chronological order I purchased them.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Well this should push back, move the device, or kick it around. It can create resistance by magnetizing one side more than the other (more power to the electro magnet). It can also "kick" it around my quickly alternating the power from one side to the other or rapidly alternating it.

I need, I need, I need... What about my wants? QuickSilver original.

"Off with his job" Mr Burns on the Simpsons.

"I've seen steering wheels / arcade sticks / flight sticks for over a hundred dollars; why be surprised at a 150 dollar item that includes the complexities of this controller?! It has BLINKY LIGHTS!!" author unknown.

 

 

These titles are listed in the chronological order I purchased them.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Exactly, I was saying that magnetic or magnetic-fluid based dampeners are pretty practical while magnetic force feedback is more problematic. I guess it depends on what kind of forces you want to replicate.

 

Opposed point magnets have an attraction that varies extremely based on the distance (by r^2 or even r^3 I think) between them so your current would have to have a massive range, very fast response to change in distance, and pedal travel would be rather limited since you would need a very strong field to have a noticeable attraction beyond an inch or two. A "coil and core" provides approximately the same force no matter where the core is in the coil. Putting an alternating current though it would produce whatever frequency rumble you liked for additional effect while the DC bias was the base force.

 

Automobiles are served pretty well by just dynamic damp on the brake plus maybe a rumble and the gas pedal could be a two stage spring.

 

For the Ka-50 it would help to know how the real thing worked. I think A16 has a good idea how the Mi-26's trim works and it would be nearly the same. It's a very straightforward thing... that I just can't picture in my head. Let's see if I can reconstruct it.

 

The pedals and the output have to be 1:1 100% of the time linked. So there must be a hard linkage from the pedals to the sensor. The resistance felt by the pilot must change. In the center neutral trim position a spring provides resistance for feel. When the trim button is pressed that resistance is unlocked causing the springs to shift.

 

Thus the springs must be movable, normally clamped in position by the force trim clutch and able to slide relative to the pedal connection when the clutch is released. When the clutch is reapplied then the new "spring center" is now a new trimmed position.

 

You'd want to have some fluid damper in their somewhere, at least on the spring slide as letting a pent up spring sproing all at once could be noisy and unsettling. Something that let's the spring tension return to neutral in approx 0.5 sec.

 

While the trim button is pressed your "artificial feel" would be absent since the spring tension is gone but I guess that's how it has to function. One hard part would be getting enough pedal travel without making a monstrosity. You'd want the spring(s) soft enough such that you could overcome it for full bump-to-bump authority over pedal travel but strong enough so that it didn't feel too light at neutral.

 

Reading that all back I can say... if you want to replicate Ka-50 controls... FFB is not an option! There is no feedback in the controls at all. The hydraulics are very powerful and there are devices to eliminate forces on the flight surfaces being felt on the cyclic, rudders, etc. The feel is entirely artificial and best replicated by springs and oil dampers.


Edited by Frederf
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Doesn't Fanatec have FFB pedals?

 

 

They only make driving pedals, and no they are not FFB. They gas is pretty standard stuff. The brake can have a optional load cell that feels like a real brake, and the clutch uses a magnetic sensor much like an ABS sensor on a car. This makes it more presise in clutch engagement. Why would you want FFB driving pedals any way? In all my years of autox and time attack I've nev3er felt any thing in the pedals aside from ABS vibrations or warped rotors. But in both cases you feel it a lot more in the wheel and your butt.

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