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Flight Director - evil or genius?


Yurgon

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My $0.02USD: The Flight Director is a great tool to use to learn how to fly with the Trimmer and should be encouraged as a learning device (as GGTharos mentioned earlier). Once you get that down (and don't scoff, the Trimmer is a lot more complicated and unintuitive than people seem to realize!), you can fly smooth and controlled with the autopilot on ALL THE TIME. Personally, I leave it on when I takeoff, cruise, attack, evade, hover, land, etc. I fly without Flight Director because I prefer flight with the autopilot, not because it's the Right way.

 

IMHO, using the Flight Directory or turning autopilot channels off enables and enforces bad flying habits. Yes, you're not going to fly perfect your first few flights with the AP fully engaged, but you're not going to get better by turning them off. If you *really* want to learn how the Shark flies, learn to use the autopilot features without your workarounds. If something weird is happening to make you lose control, ask around here: there's lots of folks who went through the same learning process and would gladly share their $0.02USD.

 

Now, that all said, this is a game (yes, I said "game") and folks are welcome to play however they'd like. I, for one, get much more enjoyment out of learning how to fully use all the systems available, but I can see how other folks may not enjoy that challenge and encourage them to enjoy the game in whatever manner works for them.

Shoot to Kill.

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What does the autopilot disengage do? Does it remove damping also? Or is it a temporary FD (without the Directors) button?

 

Nate

AP Disegnage turns off all AP channels, including damping. It is more than FD.

Shoot to Kill.

Play to Have Fun.

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What, you're going to reach for the FD button with a missile coming at you? ;)

 

By definition you have an emergency and the only thing you'll be focusing on now is FLYING the chopper, and absolutely nothing else, right? ... because it's not like you can evade a missile by out-maneuvering it, therefore you have to FLY to a safe location while dispensing CMs. As long as you're focusing on flying, you're ok with everything popped 'off' for a short time.

 

well i have to reach for the emergency AP disengage too! and the FD i can always map that to a keyboard or my controller, i would rather maneuver while chopper still stable rather than trying to stabilize then maneuver.

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AP Disegnage turns off all AP channels, including damping. It is more than FD.

 

Well in that case I'd have to disagree with GGs proposed use of the AP disengage. It would seem to me that the AP disengage is for use when the AP malfunctions. Damping is not something you'd want to disengage at all, let alone while attempting any sort of manoeuvring.

 

Einstein I am reluctant to start the AP/FD debate again (It has been done to death) But IMHO when I have hardware that responds, as the real hardware does, to AP usage, then that's when I'll use it 100%. As it is now I have to compromise.

 

Nate

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...

 

Another concept that's probably alien to most people in the combat flight sim crowd is 'no violent/wild maneuvering'. That is the result of mistakes, and it can and will lead to more mistakes often.

 

Can't agree more with that!

 

...

But note that on the real heli, those flare dispensing buttons are far, FAR from the stick. In fact, you probably shouldn't have it on your stick at all - you should HAVE to reach for it on your keyboard ;)

 

Further, most missile escape maneuvers are probably done smoothly, in a chopper at least. If you just panic and throw the heli around you're more likely to get yourself killed than if you follow a simple but relatively standard way of evasion. And there are moments where no matter what you do, you're hosed anyway - you can't evade AAMs or SAMs in a Ka-50 by violent maneuvering ... only with decoys and cover.

 

In addition, IIRC in the new patch the AP won't fight your turn once you exceed something like 3deg/sec. Just bank, pull, trim to hold the turn and then trim out of the turn. Much more natural with FFB but eh.

 

1) Flare button is really far! On the other hand usually the flare dispensing is done using programs/sequences... but still the button is quite far for a pilot to let cyclic, push the button and grab the cyclic again.

 

2) Indeed, I 've seen videos were breaking from an attack and launching flares is sudden but still seems smooth.

 

3) You mentioned new patch? You mean after 1.0.2, right? I am not aware of that... good thinking about the trimmer fighting thing. 3deg/sec... sounds good and handy!

 

In general I agree!!!


Edited by isoul
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The 3 degrees per second thing was added in 1.01 and it's not "once you exceed this the AP doesn't fight you." It's "if you capture heading when yawing >3 deg per second then the heading hold captures that yaw rate instead of compass heading." Unless there was some undocumented change the other explanation is a misread.

 

The Yaw (heading) autopilot channel functionality has also been redesigned. If the yaw rate is under 3 deg/sec. when the trimmer button is released, the autopilot will stabilize the helicopter heading. If the yaw rate is greater than 3 deg/sec., the autopilot will stabilize the yaw rate to maintain the turn.

 

As for using the FD mode... I don't really get it. In a practical sense what are people accomplishing in primary flight regimes that cannot be accomplished just as well with FD off? No one's really broken it down in terms of "I want to fly from here to here and then do this and FD mode makes it more efficient because..." For me the AP channels always are helping me, everything I want to do is easier with those tools.

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As for using the FD mode... I don't really get it. In a practical sense what are people accomplishing in primary flight regimes that cannot be accomplished just as well with FD off? No one's really broken it down in terms of "I want to fly from here to here and then do this and FD mode makes it more efficient because..." For me the AP channels always are helping me, everything I want to do is easier with those tools.

 

It's mainly the ability to change heading without messing up the trimmed centre point of the the cyclic and rudder. This does not affect the real KA-50 because the setting the trim centrepoint operates differently in the real thing.

 

Nate

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Do you mean the electronic center point or the physical spring center point?

 

My confusion is about the larger picture. "Changing heading" isn't exactly a full maneuver. "Slow from straight and level flight to a hover and then yaw to point to target" would more qualify. I mean the overall goal is "accomplish mission" and that generates sub-goals like "fly to target" "engage target" "egress." Those sub-goals generate sub-sub-goals and so on. The thing is this entire tree of things to accomplish seems to be best done with the normal non-FD setup.

 

It might be that some thing you could do is better in FD but that thing is not part of the maneuver tree so it's rather silly to want it in the first place. Something like "FD lets me perform this action best." But "this action" is actually not the best action to accomplish the mission.

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Do you mean the electronic center point or the physical spring center point?

 

 

Exactly, I mean both, that's the problem, a real Ka-50 pilot only has a physical spring centre point. Anyhow I'm not going to rekindle this old discussion. Suffice to say, When my Joystick and Pedals operate like the real cyclic and rudder do, I'll not feel the need to use the FD, when I want to be able adjust heading.

 

Nate

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The question is: If something is firing at you, would it be better to hit Flight Director or Autopilot Disengauge?

Probably Autopilot Disengauge, although I doubt many people have much experience flying with all the autopilot channels off. Flight Director might be a good idea for dogfighting with other aircraft or aiming the fixed weapons.

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The question is: If something is firing at you, would it be better to hit Flight Director or Autopilot Disengauge?

Probably Autopilot Disengauge, although I doubt many people have much experience flying with all the autopilot channels off. Flight Director might be a good idea for dogfighting with other aircraft or aiming the fixed weapons.

 

As far as I know the AP disengage is used when you have a malfunction of the AP or control surfaces that doesn't allow the AP to operate correctly.

 

Disengaging the AP channels will mean that you 'll stop control dampening, a function that you always want to be on.

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The problem is we often find situations inside the simulator that probably a real KA-50 pilot would never encounter. So if you keep applying the procedures they use to situations they never experienced, then this "impedance mismatch" happens.

 

I find easier to maintain formation in a highly uneven terrain by flying directly the chopper, and I mean hands-on-cyclic-and-collective. That way I have no need to go through the loop "press trim, move stick/rudder, release trim, go back controls to neutral" whenever I want to change direction. Same when I am in the frontline engaging enemy units, and I need to prioritize air defences, move within vikhr range, fire, step back, scan, flank, seek cover from enemy aircraft etc. Lots of maneuvering here done with FD, punctuated by hoverings without FD.

 

Let me ask the inverse question - What are the specific downsides to using FD? If yes, its disadvantages are simulated in DCS?

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The problem is we often find situations inside the simulator that probably a real KA-50 pilot would never encounter....

 

...when I am in the frontline engaging enemy units, and I need to prioritize air defences, move within vikhr range, fire, step back, scan, flank, seek cover from enemy aircraft etc. Lots of maneuvering here done with FD, punctuated by hoverings without FD.

 

Let me ask the inverse question - What are the specific downsides to using FD? If yes, its disadvantages are simulated in DCS?

 

Let me start answering in reverse order.

 

FD's main drawback is workload. This isn't much of an issue in a two-seater but in the world's only single seat attack helicopter this means trouble when you have to fly all the route "manualy", unless its a joy ride. Another thing I can't imagine is not using the Alt Hold, which helps me a lot, and this can't be done when FD is on. In general I find FD useful when I have to make much and fast turning, I find AP+Trim useful in navigating, setting up attacks, auto hover etc.

 

When you are setting up an attack, usualy at range, you need to focus on other things rather than flying the helicopter manually. At least that way works great for me.

 

About the situations the Ka-50 will get into during the game... I do agree with you. Recently I 've re-played Clear Tkvarcheli mission and I can assure you that in such situation I doubt that the Russians would send an attack helicopter alone.

 

Soviet/Russian military tactics and doctrine dictates that the attack helicopter should operate in conjuction with ground forces and both elements must provide cover to each other all the time. AFAIK there is no "conducting air-war" or "air campaign" in Russian Army's book.

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I used to play with FD once, then I've never used it again. I prefer AutoPilot modes like EinsteinP mentioned.

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Hmmm, never had this discussion before.... :)

 

The one single PITA I find with all the channels engaged is the heading hold function of the yaw channel - if it could just act like it did in FD mode, all could be forgiven. Instead, if you're even 0.5 degrees off from the system heading, the rudder gets applied. Aaaaargh! Stopit! Just act like a yaw dampener already!

 

:)

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Perhaps people are just fed up with the trimmer under the new trimmer scheme. I can't stand the new trim scheme. Under the old trim scheme a poorly executed trim event would cause jerkiness in the controls. Under the new trim scheme a poorly executed trim locks you out from the controls until you pass through the center window.

 

The thing about the holds is that they are absolutely transparent while you are overriding them with control input and provide hands-off ability once you're done.

 

Without holds the helicopter is just as responsive at the controls under manual input but doesn't have the hands-off ability that one gets with the holds.

 

move within vikhr range, fire, step back, scan, flank, seek cover

 

This is all well accomplished under the normal flight setup. Say you start at 250 km/h, 30m at a straight and level 30 degree offset from the target, say at some 10 km. Trim. About 8km the HMS sight comes down and the weapon system is confirmed set. You pull up and roll toward the target, maybe leveling at 200 km/h, 100m. Uncaging via HMS, DL ingress, or NAVTGT over the target you stabilize the aircraft nose on a slight dive. Correcting for any misalignment with rudder you trim on this attitude. Adjusting the tracking gate alignment the range ticks down to about 7 km and you fire.

 

Depending on your SOP you crank a few degrees into your escape turn or hold nose on. Missile splashes. Bank 45 away and pull at 1.5 G turn through at least 120 degrees, letting the aircraft descend back down to 50m or so while gaining speed back up to the 250 km/h goal. Trim once past the turn and clean up the weapons control by system reset, FOV wide, HMS up, etc.

 

Passing to level attitude, back cyclic to arrest descent and set power for level flight. Trim this attitude and look to your egress destination such as the rest of your flight, ingress for next attack run, next waypoint, etc.

 

It's all pretty straightforward and one trimmed some 4 times depending on preference. All trims were to establish straight line, constant value flight regimes that can involve off-stick cockpit interaction.

 

ZSU shots are easy to defeat without overly rabid inputs. As long as you move by a chopper size during the shot flight time it should miss. TOWs and Hellfires are not defeated by hard, fast jerks at the controls anyway. High-speed, smooth inputs are what give the missile offensive problems. Pulling at the stick just means damaging the aircraft and bleeding airspeed to make a sitting duck target.

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...

The one single PITA I find with all the channels engaged is the heading hold function of the yaw channel - if it could just act like it did in FD mode, all could be forgiven. Instead, if you're even 0.5 degrees off from the system heading, the rudder gets applied. Aaaaargh! Stopit! Just act like a yaw dampener already!

 

:)

 

Yeah but HDG HLD function is required since the helicopter can easily sideslip. You need heading hold too. The only bad thing is that most of us don't have FFB sticks and pedals.

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The thing about the holds is that they are absolutely transparent while you are overriding them with control input and provide hands-off ability once you're done.

 

 

Ah but you see it not transparent, for example,

 

You are flying along at 250km/hr, you last trimmed attitude at say 210km/hr and this attitude accelerated you to 250k/h. The attitude hold input into the AP is held even though the aircraft has increased in speed.

 

The AP is now using almost all of its 20% control authority to maintain the Attitude, in a real KA-50 this is obvious with the stick position, in DCS you have no way of detecting this. What happens when the trim is pressed?

 

The 20% control input from the Autopilot disappears instantly and the Aircraft will now change attitude to reflect this. The result can be extreme. Note this is without moving the cyclic on my desk, just be pressing the trim button we get a 20% change in control input.

 

This will not happen in the real Ka-50. The position of the controls in the Real Ka-50 reflect the Centrepoint + autopilot, DCS only relfects the centrepoint.

 

So in order to do something like change heading, we end up getting unwanted control inputs on all channels, by virtue of the fact that we cannot tell how much input the autopilot has made to the controls.

 

Nate

 

Edit: Damn. I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked into this discussion, yet again. :)


Edited by Nate--IRL--
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This will not happen in the real Ka-50. The position of the controls in the Real Ka-50 reflect the Centrepoint + autopilot, DCS only relfects the centrepoint.

 

Are you sure about this? From what I've heard in the past, the autopilot is downstream of the controls, and doesn't feedback its inputs to the pilot. I believe a real pilot's experience is very much like ours, except he doesn't have to worry about recentering the controls after trimming, allowing him to trim far more often. This would reduce the autopilot jerk you're talking about.

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Are you sure about this? From what I've heard in the past, the autopilot is downstream of the controls, and doesn't feedback its inputs to the pilot. I believe a real pilot's experience is very much like ours, except he doesn't have to worry about recentering the controls after trimming, allowing him to trim far more often. This would reduce the autopilot jerk you're talking about.

 

Hmm, that seems like a very odd design choice if true... Got any more info?

 

Nate

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