Loss of lift at landings

[GRoss]

Hi everybody!

 

Just wondering about the loss of lift/engine power at landings, that I sometimes experience - it only happens occasionally, but when it does I always crash (but once).

 

Pretty much what happens is I find a spot to land in, hover above it and start my descent with landing gears down - sometimes I get weird vibration inside the cockpit and it seems that the rotor blades stop generating pretty much all the lift, because even with collective at max I cannot stop the descent. The only time when I got out of that situation is when I started jerking around the cyclic (the stick) and the chopper went back to normal.

 

Any ideas what is it? Is it some kind of stall or something?

[EtherealN]

You have just made acquaintance with Rotor Vortex Ring State. ;)

 

Basically you descend too fast with too little forward speed, and your rotor blades end up inside their own downwash which results in loss of lift and vibration. Increasing collective only makes the problem worse once the RVRS is "properly" entered.

 

To avoid this, ensure that you do not have a greater than 5m/s sink rate when at less than 50km/h TAS (True Air Speed - note, not the speed on the HUD, that's Ground Speed). If you find yourself having entered the RVRS, put your stick forward to build forward speed so you can get outside of the "ring". I typically try to ensure I never go at a higher than 3m/s sink rate when slow and low in order to have some margin. This is especially important when low, since you will then not have enough air below you to successfully exit the ring through increasing forward motion.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_ring

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settling_with_power

Edited July 8, 2010 by EtherealN

[MTFDarkEagle]

Your suffering from a vortex ring by the sound of this. Keep you decent at a max of 4 m/s, and you should be fine :)

 

**Damn! EtherealN beat me to it :P

[GRoss]

Thanks a lot for the explanation! - makes sense now!

 

Gotta say though - it seems like flying a helicopter is much harder than flying a modern jet, especially on with coaxial rotor design... fun! 8D

[isoul]

... it seems like flying a helicopter is much harder than flying a modern jet, especially on with coaxial rotor design... fun! 8D

 

Indeed! Helicopters are quite harder to fly. Then again, if you manage to do it, you did something "exceptional" compared to all the other virtual-pilots!

 

Descending using the 'D' key will help you maintain a descent rate no more than 2m/s.

Edited July 8, 2010 by isoul

[tkairshows]

I used to fly helicopter logging in Alaska. The thing that I had to watch was not to dump the collective to drop the hook through the trees. The first time I settled was the only time I needed to be shown. Jettison the line and hook, not hit trees while recovering, go back to the barge to clean out pants.

[GGTharos]

Out of curiosity, did you read the manual's helicopter physics section?

 

Hi everybody!

 

Just wondering about the loss of lift/engine power at landings, that I sometimes experience - it only happens occasionally, but when it does I always crash (but once).

 

Pretty much what happens is I find a spot to land in, hover above it and start my descent with landing gears down - sometimes I get weird vibration inside the cockpit and it seems that the rotor blades stop generating pretty much all the lift, because even with collective at max I cannot stop the descent. The only time when I got out of that situation is when I started jerking around the cyclic (the stick) and the chopper went back to normal.

 

Any ideas what is it? Is it some kind of stall or something?

[159th_Viper]

....Descending using the 'D' key will help you maintain a descent rate no more than 2m/s.

 

To preempt a catastrophe of truly epic proportions followed by uncontrolled bursts of profanity seldom uttered from the mouths of mere mortals......Do not attempt landings with Auto-Descent toggled on!

 

Just thought I'd mention it in case.

[winz]

Also pay good attention to your verctical speed while you are slowing down, because you will loose lift while slowing down and you may enter the vortex ring without even touching the collective.

[JLZ]

Out of curiosity, did you read the manual's helicopter physics section?

 

RTFM? Say it :lol:

 

To preempt a catastrophe of truly epic proportions followed by uncontrolled bursts of profanity seldom uttered from the mouths of mere mortals......Do not attempt landings with Auto-Descent toggled on!

 

Just thought I'd mention it in case.

 

This is so true. I didn't know that stabilization would disengage on 4m. So... I was like feather on the wind ;)

[Avilator]

Descending using the 'D' key will help you maintain a descent rate no more than 2m/s.

Be sure to keep in mind that this disengages route mode, as they are two different positions of a three position switch. Then again, I don't see why you would want to be in route mode while in a hover or near-hover.

[pyates2104]

If you get stuck in VRS, Max out the collective (Pull hard) and push the nose forward. If you have enough height, you'll make it. Just remember not to max out the collective for too long or you'll loose rotor RPM and die!

[MTFDarkEagle]

Max out the collective (Pull hard) and push the nose forward.

 

Correct, but this has been addressed in this thread though..

 

Also: if your at low altitude: eject. No other option.

[isoul]

To preempt a catastrophe of truly epic proportions followed by uncontrolled bursts of profanity seldom uttered from the mouths of mere mortals......Do not attempt landings with Auto-Descent toggled on!

 

Just thought I'd mention it in case.

 

A good and important addition to my hasty answer!

 

I knew that... I have crashed once in order to learn it(the hard way)!

[Frederf]

If you get stuck in VRS, Max out the collective (Pull hard) and push the nose forward. If you have enough height, you'll make it. Just remember not to max out the collective for too long or you'll loose rotor RPM and die!

 

Wait I thought you should floor the collective in VRS. Doesn't maxing collective just make it worse?

[AlphaOneSix]

Increasing collective makes it worse. To exit settling with power (vortex ring state) the proper procedure is to lower the collective (doesn't have to be to the floor, but certainly don't ADD collective) followed by movement of the cyclic to gain airspeed (doesn't have to be forward but that's usually the easiest way to go so it's used most often). You just need to get the airspeed above ETL (effective translational lift), which is around 30-35km/hr (roughly 16-20 knots) or so.

[Booger]

The RVRS is my best friend. Always showing up when I don't need assistance, but nonetheless always let's me know the presence is near.

 

Ironically enough, my best friend always shows up when I'm shouting the beginning of a sentence, usually starting with: "FFFFFUUUUUUUU....."

[GRoss]

haha... thanks again for the explanations! ...and as somebody has asked - I did not read that section of the manual - its waay to big, and I'm just trying to learn the basics here still + having pretty much no free time does not help 8((

 

..I am not sure what do you mean by that though:

 

To preempt a catastrophe of truly epic proportions followed by uncontrolled bursts of profanity seldom uttered from the mouths of mere mortals......Do not attempt landings with Auto-Descent toggled on!

 

Just thought I'd mention it in case.

 

Isn't auto-descent supposed to help and all?

[winz]

auto-descent (as well as auto hoover) needs the doppler radar to work properly, which in turn requires height I think above 5meters. So auto-hover and auto-descent will diseangage if you are below 5m, which leads to 'a catastrophe of truly epic proportions followed by uncontrolled bursts of profanity seldom uttered from the mouths of mere mortals......' if you are not prepared for it.

[159th_Viper]

Isn't auto-descent supposed to help and all?

 

In the case of landing, no. Have to do that the old-fashioned way.

 

Edit: Sniped :D

[Avilator]

What he means is that, when using auto-descent, all of the stabilization channels will disengage when the radar altitude drops below 4 meters. This will leave you with an extremely unstable helicopter just a couple of meters above the ground. Careful use of the collective is the better solution.

[JLZ]

No time for reading, eh? Then watch videos. Those are very, very informative.

[GGTharos]

Start reading ... the basics are in the manual.

Sorry to say but either you find an instructor, or you do a lot of reading when it comes to aircraft. Or both ;)

 

haha... thanks again for the explanations! ...and as somebody has asked - I did not read that section of the manual - its waay to big, and I'm just trying to learn the basics here still + having pretty much no free time does not help 8((

[Frederf]

Just thinking... wouldn't it be best to keep lateral speed at/above ETL threshold until you got within ground effect proximity? I haven't tried it but lately I've been getting more educated in the "optimal safety profile" for things like takeoff. The theory seems to be "OK what if the engines failed now... ok how about now? ...now?" A state of beautiful persistent paranoia.

[pyates2104]

Wait I thought you should floor the collective in VRS. Doesn't maxing collective just make it worse?

 

It works for me.... but one additional note, push forward THEN pull collective, not the other way round.