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Ejection Sequence in A10


Tornado_Pilot
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Hey Folks,

 

This one may be a small intereset,pretty much like the canopy sound thing, but i think its nevertheless important.

 

As an Ejection Freak myself, also owning an Martin Baker Mk10 Seat, I think, an as-real-as-it-gets ejection sequence would greatly enhance the quality of the sim.

 

It was annoying,that, in Black Shark 1.0 the Ejection Sequence was pretty much crap imho. The Pilot flew too long witout opening his chute, often causing death by slamming into the ground,pretty much looking like an OoP Ejection. You had to be at very high altitude,wenn facing downwards,or at medium altitude to successfully eject and survive

 

 

I would really like the ACES II, which is used in the A10 to be modelled as close as possible, in order to avoid such disturbing events as described above.

 

Greetings

Chris

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Well, is the KA-50 ejection sequence model accurately?

AFAIK, every seat has limitation to be able to save the pilot. Even the ACES II can't save the pilot if he eject upside down to close to the ground. I know that in mode one, the ejection sequence takes about 1.39 sec to complete and if you eject below 300 feet upside down, the seat does not have enough time to correct its attitude. At least the ACES II version installed on the F-16.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Taken from a old F-16 Technical Order (circa 1985) Looks like I got the time and altitude limits wrong

ejectionsequencef16.jpg

ejectionsequencef16.jpg


Edited by mvsgas

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Ok, i should have mentioned, that, all the above reffered to ejections were within the parameters imho.

 

What are the parameter for the KA-50 ejection seat? (i.e. Minimum altitude, roll limitation, speed limitation etc)

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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The KA50 ejection seat, although its classed as zero zero, in reality you have to be above 100 feet or 100 metres, i cant recall which, in order for it to be a successful ejection, now that doesnt mean 100feet/metres if your upside down, or the same but vertical and heading for the deck at 300kph.

 

Just that it has a 100 feet or metre safe limit.

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I'm actually glad somebody brought this up. I too think the ejection sequence could be much better in terms of ejection seat thrust. Of course ED has done a great job with Black Shark, but in every fixed wing aircraft, it seems ejection altitude and vertical speed needs to be so safe, that there is almost no need for ejection.

 

Take a look here:

 

 

Ok, now attempt this in Flaming Cliffs 2. Even if you ejected at 3 times that height with the same VS, your ejection seat would drive painfully into the ground.

 

Take my opinions with a grain of salt please, I'm just going off of visuals.

 

Here's a few more ejection sequences that I'd consider impossible in the FC/FC2 world.

 

Notice the direction they're ejected in. Up, and away. Not perpendicular to the aircraft.

 

 

Again, the amazing thrust of the ejection seat saves the pilot here.

 

 

Here's a clip of Flaming Cliffs 2 ejection. You can't help but notice a perpendicular ejection, with little to no 'up and away' movement.

 

 

With an understanding of software limitations, I'd like to see maybe a more intelligent ejection sequence in A-10C if possible, please :pilotfly:

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As far as I know ACES II has much simpler ejection sequence compared to Russian K-36D Zvezda, which is the only ejection seat with attitude correction.

 

As you can see, ACES II ejections occur at almost level flight, with relatively low sink rate on your videos. And even Zvezda ejections, although at much higher bank / pitch angles, don't have excessive sink rate, which is what your FC2 ejection shows. I haven't tested ejection seat performances compared to data chart, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not that far off, besides attitude correction for Zvezda.

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@636_Castle It's not about FC 2 here, since FC does not claim to have the same fidelity as DCS does. Hence your post is kinda moot.

 

So real world ka-50 ejection seat parameters would be far more helpful.

 

It's not about Black Shark either. It's about DCS A-10C. Check the forum section we're in. :P

 

I didn't say FC2 was as advanced as DCS, nor did I ask for FC2 ejection seat improvements! The point I made was that I'd like to see DCS A-10 include a new ejection sequence, compared to what we've seen in LOMAC, FC, FC2, and DCS's fixed wing AI.

 

As you can see, ACES II ejections occur at almost level flight, with relatively low sink rate on your videos.

 

Yes...sadly this life saving technology isn't available for ACES II :(. The FC2 video is NOT mine, I agree it's not an ideal comparison, but would you agree if you went into FC2 and got in an ACES seat, you would be unable to replicate that first video of the T-Birds crash?

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I must say after a very quick test charts for ejection don't hold up in FC2, A-10A. 30 degree dive, 350 KTS airspeed, ejected at 1000 feet (radar alt), slammed into ground before chute opened. Twice. And checked parameters in track. According to chart I should survive 500 feet ejection. Seat really seems underpowered, and chute doesn't open quickly enough. Also, there is absolutely no slow down of forward movement, which should happen due to drag.

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So, are we comparing the FC2 A-10 to DCS A-10? I thought the first comparison was with the DCS BS KA-50. I'm not saying that the FC2 ejection is perfect, but I do not remember anyone from ED team claiming that the FC2 was as accurate as the DCS series.

Which mode is modeled ( if any ) in FC2? Mode one, two or both?

Castle, what is your sink rate? Is it actually 6000 ( as shown on the gauge) or do you think it was more?


Edited by mvsgas

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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As far as I know ACES II has much simpler ejection sequence compared to Russian K-36D Zvezda, which is the only ejection seat with attitude correction.

 

As you can see, ACES II ejections occur at almost level flight, with relatively low sink rate on your videos. And even Zvezda ejections, although at much higher bank / pitch angles, don't have excessive sink rate, which is what your FC2 ejection shows. I haven't tested ejection seat performances compared to data chart, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not that far off, besides attitude correction for Zvezda.

The Aces Two has attitude correction. Vernier rocket, center on the bottom of the seat.

http://www.ejectionsite.com/acesiitech.htm

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Well I'm not asking because we should know procedure for ejecting. In my case I just press Ctrl-E and hope for the best. I'm just trying to understand what happens inside the game and try to compared it to RL. Also I'm trying to understand their point of view.

 

Eject AFTER the canopy is gone, you might have forgotten that one ..

Is all automatic

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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The Aces Two has attitude correction. Vernier rocket, center on the bottom of the seat.

http://www.ejectionsite.com/acesiitech.htm

 

From that explanation I understand the seat has pitch rate damping. That is not attitude correction. The torque from the gyroscope is directly used to turn the rocket motor. This torque is proportional to angular rate and not to angle.

It may seem like a minor detail, but it means that inverted attitude will NOT be corrected by the ACES II. It does hold its attitude and prevents tumbling. But you would be heading for the ground with the aircraft sink rate plus ejection seat velocity...

 

Attitude correction would require a 6 degree of freedom inertial measurement unit plus correct initial alignment.

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Ok thanks for the correction. In the text of several Technical orders and also on that web page it states that:

This STAPAC is used to stabilize and correct for the pitch axis of the seat during a MODE 1 (low and slow) ejection.

I just misunderstood thanks tho

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Sure, my pleasure. Its just that such terms are often used too casually, while having quite different meaning.

 

So in this case "correct for the pitch axis" I take with a grain of salt as there is no way to know "up" from "down" with the available sensors.

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What are the parameter for the KA-50 ejection seat? (i.e. Minimum altitude, roll limitation, speed limitation etc)

http://www.zvezda-npp.ru/engl/k37.html

The K-37 rocket-parachute system (RPS) is designed for pilot's ejection from a helicopter in emergency using a towing rocket motor, which pulls the pilot out of the cockpit. The seat stays in the helicopter.

 

Usage of the pulling motor provides automatically for system stabilization during a propulsion phase, and escape from the helicopter through a small-sized hatch. A modularity principle used in this system makes it possible to apply the RPS in various aircraft. The system makes it possible to bailout with a parachute system.

 

The K-37 seat ensures escape within the range of Ve=0-400 km/h and H=0-4000 m (including V=0 and H=0). It has a stepless height adjustment range of 170 mm. The installation weight of the fully equipped seat does not exceed 94 kg (including the parachute system, survival kit and Combined Service Connector).

http://www.ejectionsite.com/k37seat.htm

 

http://2076.ru.all-biz.info/cat.php?oid=4469 — try to buy it and test yourself.

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So, are we comparing the FC2 A-10 to DCS A-10? I thought the first comparison was with the DCS BS KA-50. I'm not saying that the FC2 ejection is perfect, but I do not remember anyone from ED team claiming that the FC2 was as accurate as the DCS series.

 

Again, I'm not saying the FC2 ejection needs to be improved, nor am I complaining about it not being perfect.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it 2 more times:

 

I'd appreciate it if we see something different in A-10C.

 

I'd appreciate it if we see something different in A-10C.

 

Since I highly doubt very many people have seen DCS A-10's ejection sequence yet, how is anyone certain it will be modeled in some new high fidelity sequence? I'm not so sure myself, that's why I'm encouraging a revamp based on what I've seen in the last 4 releases.

 

Castle, what is your sink rate? Is it actually 6000 ( as shown on the gauge) or do you think it was more?

 

I wasn't paying attention to my VS so I'm not sure. I was using the minimum ejection altitude vs dive angle & speed parameters.


Edited by 636_Castle

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Check the video at 2:39. That is the same system used in the KA-50 correct?

 

I can't seem to remember nor have I seen any videos with ACES II ejection other than level flight, have you guys found any? What I mean is, I can't remember aircraft departing flight and then seen a ejection.


Edited by mvsgas

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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