VERGEEV Group campaign RELEASED!

[WindWpn]

I believe "paid" campaign development is warranted if the quality, testing, and immersion levels meet or exceed that found either in the mod community or the base install. This effort (VG) appears to be quite robust, and with a storyline which can encompass 200+ missions for campaign completion and chapter release deployment, then yea it makes sense. Plus, the $4.00 price tag is quite small given the LOE for concept, creation, and testing.

 

Though, there is a line between what is free and what is for sale and we have seen issues/debate with other sims. I am not sure of the motivations for creating modded content. I guess that is a question for the modders, but I assume it can range from wanting a functionality in-game that is missing (I always thought about trying to figure out how to get dynamic weather in FF) for the modder themselves, to resume material for a possible job offer in the computer gaming industry.

 

All in all, when content cost money, it should have the quality, time, and resource allocation behind it which exceeds that found in standard community modded content. Of course even this idea is debatable, but I guess for me, if I see something that looks like it is well thought out, designed, tested, and implemented, then I will be willing to throw some cash at it.

 

Another priced implementation I have seen out there was for a training program tied to DCS Blackshark. The program looked very detailed and structured, though the first program coursework is free. Not sure what it is called, but someone out there probably knows what I am referring to.

Edited August 2, 2010 by WindWeapon

[TheMoose]

Answered with a real lawyer rumble…. What about the user?

Edited August 3, 2010 by TheMoose

[WindWpn]

Answered with a real lawyer rumble…. What about the user?

 

Well in my best "legalese" I guess the answer is... "Pony up the $4 bucks!" :)

 

Plus the 12 cents addition for international exchange.

[einar-st]

Another priced implementation I have seen out there was for a training program tied to DCS Blackshark. The program looked very detailed and structured, though the first program coursework is free. Not sure what it is called, but someone out there probably knows what I am referring to.

 

You're talking about Leading Edge Training (http://leadingedgetraining.us/) which I would gladly pay for per lesson if they got anywhere, but it seems as though it's on ice for the moment. Only the first free lesson has been released.

 

I too believe that 4$ is an okay price if it's a quality product, and if I had finished the campaigns already in the game I'd probably buy it. If you disagree with it being a sellable product, that's okay because purchase is your choice. :)

 

My two cents.

[STP Dragon]

...Dragon`s mission for black shark, and all for "FREE"...

 

Hi TheMoose,

 

To creating missions is a hobby for me.

I told my father about it and that I have ca. 50 downloads per week and get a lot of praise.

The only thing he asked me was: Do you earn mony with this?

 

Since this I thought about selling the missions.

 

... but do you know why my missions are still for free?

 

Because if you selling something you have to check everything twice and become responsible for your work.

I don't want this! It is a hobby for me and not a business. It is fun... if money is in the game it can get ugly fast.

 

Take a look at the dates of my updates. Everytime I'm playing my missions I found some isues and I fix them weekly. This is not possible if you get money for your work.

 

 

So the VERGEEV Group have my respect for doing this.

It is a lot more stress and work to create missions for sale because you have to hand over much more quality.

Edited August 3, 2010 by =STP= Dragon

[FGSchtuzer]

What make yours so different?

 

I think that WindWeapon and =STP= Dragon have already answered to this question.

The major differences are new level of quality and details as well as interesting storyline that is supported through ~200 missions and practically full correspondence to real life utilization of helicopters like Ka-50 (unlike many quake style missions). Plus a products that was tested to a maximal reasonable level.

 

If you are selling smth for money you're usually responsible for quality and support. This results in enourmous hours for testing - take a look at previous topics reg. our project. Just an example - 5 testers (different experience level - to tailor product for anyone in virtual pilots' community) flying each mission in two different language versions minimum 2-3 times multiplied by 20 mission plus extra testing after errors are corrected + testing of everything as campaign. In addition you're to put down whole story, write scenario and briefings, get them translated, find and employ several actors to record at audio studio (rent of studio is no for free!), spend a lot of time with every actor to get best results, process and integrate sounds files into missions, draw maps etc. Do it yourself and then we turn back to this conversation.

 

$4 is very and very affordable for such product. This is not so as for earning money (I'm working in international law firm) but to compensate for time and resources spent and to remunerate third parties involved. And to enable to continue the work over next ~180 missions. Engine needs gas to keep running. Enthusiasm is not enough - it works well but ends quite fast.

 

I would never approach such a project just for business reason - you should be in love with what you're doing.

Edited August 3, 2010 by =FG=Schtuzer

[STP Dragon]

Engine needs gas to keep running. Enthusiasm is not enough - it works well but ends quite fast.

 

I would never approach such a project just for business reason - you should be in love with what you're doing.

 

True words :thumbup:

But for my engine the only gas is the praise of the users and the fun on our servers. :)

So @ all: give me feedback and I will give you missions. :)

... maybe not the quality of this VERGEEV groupe missions... but for free.

Edited August 3, 2010 by =STP= Dragon

[joker62]

@ to =FG=Schtuzer

 

two missions successfull flown.

 

n.01: nothing to report.

 

n.02: better, I think, if Mi-28's pilots leave a short comm when takeoffed and ready to follow route. (wow ... a little hard to mantain formation with these Mi-28s).

 

antonio

Edited August 5, 2010 by joker62

[zdXu]

I have played the mission 1 & 2, found on a french server for free.

 

- Biggest issue is the fact that i can't fully understand the spoken orders/comments. It has been found that the given short text summaries are NOT a fully substitute for the spoken radio-communications. So, for me, parts of the story/scenario remains unclear. Not a good start to play missions which are based strictly on the "command and obey" stuff.

Frustration will be inevitable.

The decision to make only short text-summaries for the radio-comm was IMO a wrong decision.

 

- The second biggest issue is the payment: i don't give away my mobile phonenumber and my creditcard-data to an unknown ukrainan company.

[joker62]

I have played the mission 1 & 2, found on a french server for free.....

 

Dear Sir,

 

in "VG campaign regulations" at point 5 You can read:

"Radiocommunication close to real life quality is used in the group. Since understanding

the talks requires some adaptation period for a pilot, quality of radio traffic is

somewhat better in the beginning. For those pilots who might not be able to understand

actors’ English, short text messages were made available."

It's right, that require some time in adaption, as in real life.

 

I've purchased VG campaigns in english and russian language. No problem with my credit card and phonecell. I've found LiqPAY a quick and easy way to purchase ... for now. But this's only my opinion.

 

best regards.

antonio

Edited August 5, 2010 by joker62

[TheMoose]

v

I think that WindWeapon and =STP= Dragon have already answered to this question.

The major differences are new level of quality and details as well as interesting storyline that is supported through ~200 missions and practically full correspondence to real life utilization of helicopters like Ka-50 (unlike many quake style missions). Plus a products that was tested to a maximal reasonable level.

 

If you are selling smth for money you're usually responsible for quality and support. This results in enourmous hours for testing - take a look at previous topics reg. our project. Just an example - 5 testers (different experience level - to tailor product for anyone in virtual pilots' community) flying each mission in two different language versions minimum 2-3 times multiplied by 20 mission plus extra testing after errors are corrected + testing of everything as campaign. In addition you're to put down whole story, write scenario and briefings, get them translated, find and employ several actors to record at audio studio (rent of studio is no for free!), spend a lot of time with every actor to get best results, process and integrate sounds files into missions, draw maps etc. Do it yourself and then we turn back to this conversation.

 

$4 is very and very affordable for such product. This is not so as for earning money (I'm working in international law firm) but to compensate for time and resources spent and to remunerate third parties involved. And to enable to continue the work over next ~180 missions. Engine needs gas to keep running. Enthusiasm is not enough - it works well but ends quite fast.

 

I would never approach such a project just for business reason - you should be in love with what you're doing.

 

Thanks for the response,

 

I'm already in love with all the details of your comment, however, I'm concern about the security in place on buying it. I trust ED, however I'm always weary about purchasing online, as anyone with a right mind would do. Sending my credit card number to someone/company is always a reasonable concern. If ED would post this campaign within their products, then I would surely buy it through them, since I’ve already gained a trust rapport with them. I don't know, maybe selling it 6$ through DCS instead? ED gets a cut, proven customer are less weary, everyone gets a piece of the pie, all is well? No?

 

Until then I think I will pass...

 

Edit: you might want to consider implementing some type of campaign for online sessions...

 

 

Best Regards,

Edited August 5, 2010 by TheMoose
Grammatical, I'm French so sue me lol :)

[TheMoose]

Hi TheMoose,

 

To creating missions is a hobby for me.

I told my father about it and that I have ca. 50 downloads per week and get a lot of praise.

The only thing he asked me was: Do you earn mony with this?

 

Since this I thought about selling the missions.

 

... but do you know why my missions are still for free?

 

Because if you selling something you have to check everything twice and become responsible for your work.

I don't want this! It is a hobby for me and not a business. It is fun... if money is in the game it can get ugly fast.

 

Take a look at the dates of my updates. Everytime I'm playing my missions I found some isues and I fix them weekly. This is not possible if you get money for your work.

 

 

So the VERGEEV Group have my respect for doing this.

It is a lot more stress and work to create missions for sale because you have to hand over much more quality.

 

You already have hands down a good product, maybe you should think of making money out of it, again as always a product as such. I would require ED's stamp of approval on the purchase. It would even be best if they would be selling it through their portal... IMO. However please continue with your missions, I like them a lot.

 

Regards

[FGSchtuzer]

If ED would post this campaign within their products, then I would surely buy it through them, since I’ve already gained a trust rapport with them.

 

Do you think it wasn't discussed? I'll not disclose any details on negotiations (unless authorized people do it themselves) but I can say only one thing - we are where we are now. Period.

 

Your concern is well understood. We're thinking about alternative payment procedure. It's not so easy - we have VERY stupid laws in our country - I tell you as a lawyer.

Edited August 5, 2010 by =FG=Schtuzer

[TheMoose]

Do you think it wasn't discussed? I'll not disclose any details on negotiations (unless authorized people do it themselves) but I can say only one thing - we are where we are now. Period.

 

Your concern is well understood. We're thinking about alternative payment procedure. It's not so easy - we have VERY stupid laws in our country - I tell you as a lawyer.

 

Hold your horses, ever heard of good customer service? 1. It starts with a smile & being friendly. NO need to respond aggravated, how would I know that you already attempted to make a deal with ED?

Enough said, good luck with your endeavors. I for one, with this type of service. I’m not buying it.

Regards,

[joker62]

...

 

No, unfortunately zoom of graphic maps is not provided in DCS: Ka-50 BS. The size of 512х512 is very small to show all necessary information. In next part we will draw additional maps which can be printed in large size.

 

...

 

Dear Sir,

 

please, can You send (or give available) for customers VGCampaign Your original "FPscreens" and "TacticalMaps" included in each campaign's mission, to printer its?

Certainly, size of these images would be large enough. Clearly in russian and english language.

Thanks for courtesy and patience.

B.T.W. I've flown 5 missions: excellent product, for now.

 

best regards

antonio

[FGSchtuzer]

I have played the mission 1 & 2, found on a french server for free.

 

As long as you've bought (or promise to buy) the campaign with us we have no problem with you flying those missions. Thank you for information.

 

- Biggest issue is the fact that i can't fully understand the spoken orders/comments. It has been found that the given short text summaries are NOT a fully substitute for the spoken radio-communications. So, for me, parts of the story/scenario remains unclear.

....

The decision to make only short text-summaries for the radio-comm was IMO a wrong decision.

 

Of course, they can not be full substitute because they are SHORT. If we put full dialogues into text window then 1) it will occupy large part of your screen b) you get relax and won't even try to understand radio talks c) it's far from realistic (all pilots experience bigger or smaller problems with understanding the radio but finally get used to it).

 

I've been communicating with a number of native English speakers on this forum and they say that quality and understanding levels are above satisfactory. Of course, many things may be improved but it's not a dramatic problem now.

 

Anyway - we will keep it mind for next part.

 

Not a good start to play missions which are based strictly on the "command and obey" stuff. Frustration will be inevitable.

 

Player is out of flight school with first combat missions - he will never be allowed initiative. As experience grows pilots gradually get more and more freedom and trust but still must follow all orders. I think Russian army is not unique here.

 

- The second biggest issue is the payment: i don't give away my mobile phonenumber and my creditcard-data to an unknown ukrainan company.

 

As I wrote above, we'll soon introduce alternative payment method. That should clean all issues.

 

....Your original "FPscreens" and "TacticalMaps" included in each campaign's mission...

 

We simply don't have them. For next part we plan to issue a document with maps in higher resolution. We had multiple requests of this type.

 

In reality a pilot would have a clean (or almost clean :P) map and draw his own marks on his knee during and after the briefing, also in cockpit.

 

We actually tried to replace one of the textures on pilots pants to simulate the map - that looked awful I tell - I'll try to find that screenshot.

 

B.T.W. I've flown 5 missions: excellent product, for now.

 

If you like first 5, then you'll like the other 15 :thumbup:

[igormk]

...Of course, they can not be full substitute because they are SHORT. If we put full dialogues into text window then 1) it will occupy large part of your screen b) you get relax and won't even try to understand radio talks c) it's far from realistic (all pilots experience bigger or smaller problems with understanding the radio but finally get used to it)...

It is true that IRL radio communications are very often causing difficulties for the pilots. Background noise, weak radio links, pilot’s concentration focused on something else… you will have to deal with all of that and get used to “listen to the radio with one ear” all the time.

 

To be honest I didn’t tried the VG campaign yet (I only saw one track file), but having in mind that this campaign is based on keeping the high reality level, I agree with =FG=Schtuzer on the way the problem with radio communications is worked out. Of course, in the simulator you don’t have the opportunity to request “say again” if you didn’t hear/understood your last transmission, so having short written description could be the best solution. Otherwise it is probably true that players would get too relaxed and rely too much on the subtitles. Train your ear and concentration, and you will have no problems.

 

...For next part we plan to issue a document with maps in higher resolution. We had multiple requests of this type.

 

In reality a pilot would have a clean (or almost clean :P) map and draw his own marks on his knee during and after the briefing, also in cockpit...

Regarding the maps, maybe you should consider getting TC-1 Tactical Chart. Having one would give you possibility to better prepare for a mission (draw your route, front line, target locations, friendly positions; examine terrain features in the target area…), and with it you will have full DCS/FC2 area covered on one sheet.

If you are not familiar with this map, here is the link.

[FGSchtuzer]

Regarding the maps, maybe you should consider getting TC-1 Tactical Chart. Having one would give you possibility to better prepare for a mission (draw your route, front line, target locations, friendly positions; examine terrain features in the target area…), and with it you will have full DCS/FC2 area covered on one sheet.

If you are not familiar with this map, here is the link

 

Hi igormk,

thanks for your answer. Of course, we know your maps - personally I have one on computer and plan to print it out (or buy a printed version).

 

I use it for online missions because the distances there are large enough (especially in missions where you have tasks for fighters and attack planes) and it's good to have general picture in sight. However, for our campaign the map is too "strategic" = not detailed enough - we take screenshots from mission editor that are more zoomed that yours. That's because helicopters' missions are (as a rule) geographically more compact and are strongly dependent on flying in the mountains (not above them). Just take a look at example of the map which is included in every mission.

Besides we're making two language versions of every map.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2010 by =FG=Schtuzer

[bigdog4215]

Is there something up with the night vision because my dad was playing a night map and couldn't turn them on

[ObvilionLost]

I have a question about mission 5. I was flying enjoying the view and suddenly across the border ZU engages me.

Is it realistic that you can fire back if someone across the border engages you?

Edited August 7, 2010 by ObvilionLost

[FGSchtuzer]

Is there something up with the night vision because my dad was playing a night map and couldn't turn them on

 

Your have to order night vision googles before takeoff from technicians. Then you can use them any time you want - you might also want to regulate brightness - it really helps a lot (refer to game manual for key combination).

 

There are ar least 2 missions in this part of VG campaign where you can't do without NVG.

 

I have a question about mission 5. I was flying enjoying the view and suddenly across the border ZU engages me.

Is it realistic that you can fire back if someone across the border engages you?

 

This may happen more than in one mission. Remember that relations between both parties on each side of the border are under stress. So small conflicts and provocations are possible even without declaring the war.

 

As a general rule you're free to open return fire - your duty is to save your aircraft. But do not cross the border when doing that - don't give other party a reason to proceed with next step. In some missions you'll be directly forbidden to open return fire (in briefing or by tactical officer).

[joker62]

 

If you like first 5, then you'll like the other 15 :thumbup:

 

Dear Sir,

 

I would like share with You my impressions/feedbacks about VGCampaign, hoping these welcomed.

Firstly, I'm really happy to fly it: finally a campaign for pilots. Also environment is good.

 

About missions:

01. nothing to report,

02. ntr,

03. ntr,

04. ntr,

05. ntr,

06. GRU ZU-23 is a blow under the belt; a short radiocomm from Voron-1 to alert 233 of this threat in the area should be very appreciate; then to player avoid it.

07. ntr,

08. ntr,

09. in the brifieng, HQ could let 233 to known more about positions of three border guards; I've investigate all mountains in the assigned search zones: :doh:

10. Approaching to Sochi-Adler for landing, Naval should communicate with 233, so as in 11th mission. Even vessel Geroi Baltiki cleared 233 for RTB, I waited radiocomm from Naval for landing. According with P.11 last paragraph of campaign's internal regulations (about "prolunged silence"), I thinked my work was bad.

11. ntr.

 

As soon as I flown other missions, I'll still write.

 

Thanks for Your care about VGCampaign. Campaign is very involving.

Best regards.

antonio

[WindWpn]

Finished!

 

I have completed the VG campaign (Chapter 1)! I flew the campaign with invulnerability off to ensure I keep my wits out there! Very well done campaign with missions that were quite realistic and true to action which may be experienced. I had two ejections but survived though I had to refly a few missions to earn the points to progress. Finished with a score of 78 though, which is I guess, acceptable.

 

Looking forward to the next 20 missions for Billy VG.

 

Edited August 19, 2010 by WindWeapon

[FGSchtuzer]

joker62

 

Thanks a lot for your feedback and for taking notes of each mission.

We'll consider your comments and get back to you with our answers (our heads are now occupied with next 20 missions so we'll have to look into each mission in order to remind the plot and tasks set).

 

WindWeapon

 

Congratulations! Nice stat I must say, really good.

 

I envy a little cause I never flew all missions in a row (as a campaign) - just was testing each individual mission many, many times. That must a be different experience for a newcomer. I will question leroni if he saved his stat since he was testing whole campaign.

Edited August 19, 2010 by =FG=Schtuzer

[FGSchtuzer]

DEMO 1.0.2. AVAILABLE!

 

For those of you who didn't manage to try our demo for simulator version 1.0.1 we've released demo for 1.0.2.

 

More details here.