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SU30 vs Super Hornet


SAM77
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Just caught the ass end of Australian 60 minutes with a piece on our new acquisition the Super Hornet.

 

6 billion aussie dollars over 10 years for 24 super hornets

 

The reporter ask the squadron leader if Indonesia went to war with us could the Super Hornet gives us the edge.

 

 

Indonesia has SU27 and Su30 but in very small numbers. 5 of each.

 

In the hypothetical world of the reporter my Indonesian Sukhois are up to date and the pilots are of similar level.

 

So who wins.

 

Was thinking of writing into 60 minutes and letting em have a piece of my mind for producing such BS for national dumbass consumption.

 

Honchos in Sukhois anyday for me :P

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I'd bet on SuperHornet. It has better missiles at all ;] Su-30 will be forced to use R\ER where, Hornet AIM-120C5-C7. It makes huge difference.

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Our whole economic model hinges on a steady stream BS for national dumbass consumption. If you want facts or unbiased reporting, turn on BBC.

 

I think it is less about the aircraft than the radar and the weapons systems, if you are talking head-to-head conflict. The Russians make a mean aircraft, and it is probably a damn good value for the cost, but then you have to worry about availability of parts, engines, etc. And how good is the radar/weapons package going to be? Is Sukhoi going to sell you the latest & greater radar/weapons package they got? You going to get the same level of cooperation of Pogasyan and company in Moscow as you will get from Boeing and the Pentagon?

 

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I'll go for Super Hornets in this scenario. 24 Super Hornets against 10 Flankers, Super Hornets will probably win.

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In the hypothetical world of the reporter my Indonesian Sukhois are up to date and the pilots are of similar level.

 

My qualifier

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Very valid point Sam77 the Indonesian Fighter force is at present impotent..... and has been for the last 25-30 years !

 

And if we apply Sam77's qualifier then you are still talking Export model SU27/30 radar with at best R27/R73 versus AESA radar AIM120C and AIM9X !


Edited by IvanK
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I messed up by asking who wins when the question posed to squadron ldr was does the super Hornet give the edge..

 

From the replies here it is quite favourable to the Hornet....

 

 

Thanks Guys!!!!

 

 

Do Russians allow export of R77 for the aircraft that can carry it????


Edited by SAM77

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I think the aliens will win.

 

Only ALIENS that could are Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa and Stoner.

 

:P

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Well, I guess I'll be the Devil's Advocate today. I got my money on the Su-30's. They're super-maneuverable, and although don't have an AESA radar but only a PESA radar, still has the superior air-to-air weapon. The AMRAAM is a good missile, but the R-77 baseline model out ranges the baseline AMRAAM and some of the later variants. The R-77M Ramjet variant has a 160 km maximum range, add in a maneuvering target and various altitudes, it's lower but it's still farther than any AMRAAM models I know of.

 

About the radar, the Su-30MK2 has either a Zhuk-27 or N00VE or N011M BARS passively electronic scanned array. The stated Radar cross section of the F/A-18E/F is in the 0.1 meter squared zone. Accordingly, the BARS should be able to detect the F/A-18E/F at about 80 km. I don't have good sources regarding to the maximum launch and maximum effective range of any AMRAAM variants so I'll just go with the Wikipedia claim of 48 km.

 

My prediction is that the F/A-18E/F would be the first to spot the Su-30, as the APG-79 is a pretty good radar and the Su-30 is also a pretty big plane. However, even with the element of surprise, the F/A-18E/F only manages to hit 1-3 of the Su-30MK2, owing to their super maneuverbility. Don't really need to say much here, R-77M are fired at the void between Short and Medium range, then they switch to the R-27s for the short range kills.

 

Not a professional, so can't do an in depth analysis. But, the F/A-18E/F might just take the day owing to their superior numbers. But, I did have my money on the Sukhoi's, so I'd say they'd take home the tactical victory.

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AFAIK the R-77M is not yet in serial production and not in service. My bet is that it won't enter service for another 5-10 years, so comparing it to the already well established and in contineous development AMRAAM is not right. Even the original R-77 is in very low numbers...

 

So I think the major advantages the Flanker holds over the SuperBug are not the radar or the missiles, but rather its speed and range. The Flanker can fly faster and longer, and thus govern the fight. In a head to head all-out scenario, I believe the Super Hornet would maintain the advantage due to its modern radar and electronics in addition to its lower RCS and good BVR weapons. BTW for short range kills, the flanker should better use R-73, and not the R-27 :)

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If one aircraft is better than the other the difference is marginal enough that victory on 1 vs 1 is not assured for either side. Therefore it comes down to numbers and clearly it is far more likely that Australia has the numbers.

 

Incidentally I think the Indonesian change of government means that (at present) confrontation with Australia is far less likely than it has been in the past. I hope you remember to give the Indonesians credit for this - they may be your most likely potential adversary but are also not your enemy (at least not yet). This is an improvement of the situation from what it once was.

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Do Russians allow export of R77 for the aircraft that can carry it????

Export version of R-77 is RVV-AE and it comes with all modern russian aircraft, including Su-30MK*, MiG-29SMT and MiG-29K.

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AFAIK the R-77M is not yet in serial production and not in service. My bet is that it won't enter service for another 5-10 years, so comparing it to the already well established and in contineous development AMRAAM is not right. Even the original R-77 is in very low numbers...

 

So I think the major advantages the Flanker holds over the SuperBug are not the radar or the missiles, but rather its speed and range. The Flanker can fly faster and longer, and thus govern the fight. In a head to head all-out scenario, I believe the Super Hornet would maintain the advantage due to its modern radar and electronics in addition to its lower RCS and good BVR weapons. BTW for short range kills, the flanker should better use R-73, and not the R-27 :)

 

True, however, the baseline R-77 is said to have a range between 40-90 km, so for compromise, I'd just say it would be 65 km. Yes, but as I stated before, the maximum range of the AMRAAM for any variant is apparently 48 km, even though the Superhornet can detect the Su-30 from over 100 km away, it would still be out of it's firing range. However, because the Su-30 should be able to detect the Superhornet from 80 km away, that would allow the Su-30 to fire it's R-77 or even it's R-27ER/ET, all before the Superhornet can fire it's AMRAAM's.

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I think it all depends on the mission. If you mean that one party does Offensive Counter Air and the other Air Defense, I guess indeed missiles and radar today are more important than sheer speed and manoevrability.

 

But that scenario isn't likely, given the fact both have few aircraft and might want before everything else not to loose one.

 

Can you imagine you fly 1000 miles just to do Fighter sweep? How long will you be in the target area looking for enemy fighters? This sounds to me like Battle of Britain revisited.

 

More likely is that one of the parties tries to do long-range strike. Most probably at economic targets, like shipping or infrastructure, but it could also be an attempt to destroy the enemy runways or aircaft shelters + fighters on the ground. The strike package will try to evade enemy fighters, not engage them.

 

Both the Su-30 and the Hornet are a very good choice for that. If they do not use stand-off weapons like JASSM, they would be vulnerable to intercept while being low on fuel. In such a scenario, whether you fly Super Hornet or Su-30, your adversary will be a very serious threat.

 

Since Australia in our thought experiment has more fighters it could use some Super Hornets specifically for escort, but even then the distance seems to me a complicating factor.

 

Anti-shipping activities seem to me more likely; and then, so long as none of the parties has its fighters depleted, it remains risky.

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True, however, the baseline R-77 is said to have a range between 40-90 km, so for compromise, I'd just say it would be 65 km. Yes, but as I stated before, the maximum range of the AMRAAM for any variant is apparently 48 km, even though the Superhornet can detect the Su-30 from over 100 km away, it would still be out of it's firing range. However, because the Su-30 should be able to detect the Superhornet from 80 km away, that would allow the Su-30 to fire it's R-77 or even it's R-27ER/ET, all before the Superhornet can fire it's AMRAAM's.

 

 

You are talking about numbers, when neither of us really has any clue about the capabilities of those radars and their detection ranges. Also as we all know missile ranges also vary with attitude, aspect and speed. If you detect the enemy much earlier, you will have the advantage to set-up the fight to fit your strategy and project your advantages over the enemy.


Edited by Fahhh
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The flanker might be a better kinetic performer overall but the superhornet enjoys a massive advantage on electronics, radar, RCS and weapons. It has other advantages like maintenance, MTBO, and without the need to send engines back to the country of origin to do it.

 

1 to 1 I would say the super bug is the best all round fighter. I have to say though that I would rather prefer F-35A's for AA and F-35C to replace the Aardvarks. Australia made a bad choice IMHO as they will end up with 2 new types but one of them clearly supersedes the other one in every aspect.

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Yes, but maybe not in the same timeframe: the Super Hornet is capable today, and will have full operational capability with long-range weapons soon. Before an F-35C would be operational with the relevant weapons and systems in Australia, we are talking 10 years from now. I see the F-35 as the fighter of the next decade, it will never truly compete in this decade with the plethora of fully matured and heavily armed 4th gen fighters.

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clearly supersedes the other one in every aspect.

Aircraft are built and bought according to the specification, not according to which you think has better combat only properties.

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Ноет в небе самолетик,

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I don't know how can you compare R-77 missile which almost doesn't exist with serial production of AIM-120C5 or C7.

 

During fight Su-30 will not be equipped with R-77, most probably only R-27ER IMHO.

Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D

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I don't know how can you compare R-77 missile which almost doesn't exist with serial production of AIM-120C5 or C7.

R-77 doesn't. RVV-AE is in serial production, which is practically the same, as R-77, except the foreign parts, used in it.

"Я ошеломлён, но думаю об этом другими словами", - некий гражданин

Ноет котик, ноет кротик,



Ноет в небе самолетик,

Ноют клумбы и кусты -

Ноют все. Поной и ты.

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