SU30 vs Super Hornet

[IronsightSniper]

You are talking about numbers, when neither of us really has any clue about the capabilities of those radars and their detection ranges. Also as we all know missile ranges also vary with attitude, aspect and speed. If you detect the enemy much earlier, you will have the advantage to set-up the fight to fit your strategy and project your advantages over the enemy.

 

I am using Defense Analyst range estimates for the BARS(courtesy of Air Power Australia) and USN radar capabilities declaration. Yes, missile ranges vary with altitude, but logically, unless the 2 aircrafts are seperated by several kilometers of altitude, there would be the same amount of reductions imposed on the missiles. Assuming it is a head on intercept, with little altitude deviation, the baseline ranges of the R-77 and other variants of the R-27 will still outrange the AMRAAM.

 

I'll concede the point that the ability to detect an enemy earlier will yield you the advantage of surprise, and subsequently the ability to maneuver yourself to a position which will deliver favorable odds. However, it is highly doubtful that even with a superior fighting position that the F/A-18E/F would be able to capitalize on it's advantage and launch most of it's AMRAAMs before the Su-30MK begin detecting the F/A-18E/F's.

 

The flanker might be a better kinetic performer overall but the superhornet enjoys a massive advantage on electronics, radar, RCS and weapons. It has other advantages like maintenance, MTBO, and without the need to send engines back to the country of origin to do it.

 

1 to 1 I would say the super bug is the best all round fighter. I have to say though that I would rather prefer F-35A's for AA and F-35C to replace the Aardvarks. Australia made a bad choice IMHO as they will end up with 2 new types but one of them clearly supersedes the other one in every aspect.

 

I do concur that the F/A-18E/F is superior in it's electronics, but only slightly. An AESA compared to a PESA are different, but not to the degree of radical. As for RCS, the F/A-18E/F's estimated RCS is about 1 meter squared, with the regular Su-30MK at 7-10 meter squared. However, recently, Russia has painted a Su-30 with RAM, which reduced it's RCS to about 3 meter squared.

 

Personally, I view the F-35 as utter crap, to put it blunty. It's to me like throwing RAM onto a F-16 and calling it an air-dominance fighter. Really, with the future introduction of the PAK-FA and the recent halt in production of the F-22, the F-35 would be our front line against potential T-50's. Carlo Kopp at Air Power Australia did an analysis regarding how combat between the PAK-FA and the F-22/35 would go. The F-22 would fare far better than the F-35, apparently.

 

Anywho, after revisiting Air Power Australia, I realized they've already did an analysis between F/A-18E/F v.s. Su-30. It's quite interesting really.

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-SuperBug-vs-Flanker.html

 

"In conclusion, the Flanker in all current variants kinematically outclasses the Super Hornet in all high performance flight regimes. The only near term advantage the latest Super Hornets have over legacy Flanker variants is in the APG-79 AESA and radar signature reduction features, an advantage which will not last long given highly active ongoing Russian development effort in these areas. The supercruising Al-41F engine will further widen the performance gap in favour of the Flanker. What this means is that post 2010 the Super Hornet is uncompetitive against advanced Flankers in BVR combat, as it is now uncompetitive in close combat."

 

Pretty much what we've been arguing no?

Edited August 7, 2010 by IronsightSniper

[tflash]

Don't rely to much on this source: Dr. Carlo Kopp, the main drive behind "Ausairpower.net" is known for outspoken ideas and is not free from bias, to say the least.

[RIPTIDE]

Karlo Kopp wants Australia to have F-22's... he'll say China and Russia have flying sharks with lazers on their heads just to get public opinion in Oz land to push for F-22.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

What is factually wrong with Dr. Karlo's Koop texts and comments?

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Aircraft are built and bought according to the specification, not according to which you think has better combat only properties.

That is a very good point. Australia invests more money and it has more advanced weapon systems. Flanker series of aircraft weapon systems are capable of coping with everything but, maybe, F-22. Problem is with the customers who don't have money for upgrades and advanced Flanker versions.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I don't know how can you compare R-77 missile which almost doesn't exist with serial production of AIM-120C5 or C7.

Even extended range R-77 exists and if you have money you can buy it. RVV-SD range is about 30% longer then the RVV-AE.

 

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/567/

[tflash]

Just like the Su-30 is a very logical choice for Indonesia, given the vast area to be covered and the ability to take off / land from rougher airstrips, the Aussie government decision didn't come lightly and has taken into account a lot of factors. Don't forget it is an interim buy: an advanced F-15 would also have been a good choice, but much more expensive.

 

Updating an F-111 with all the advanced electronics in the Super Hornet (necessary to team up with Wedgetail and a more netcentric approach on air defense) + extending service life was just unrealistic and F-22 just simply is not for sale.

 

F-35 will take a long time to get operational, it just was to costly to bridge it with F-111.

 

And again: the direct comparison of performance is not the only relevant issue when one aircraft is on a strike mission and another tries to intercept.

 

Super Hornets will be able to build a very good SA and have all it takes for precision strike.

Edited August 7, 2010 by tflash
removed some character sniping

[Pilotasso]

Even extended range R-77 exists and if you have money you can buy it. RVV-SD range is about 30% longer then the RVV-AE.

 

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/567/

 

Its not in service yet. ETA for service entry with Su-35 and whatever Su the T-50 gives origin to.

[Pilotasso]

I am using Defense Analyst range estimates for the BARS(courtesy of Air Power Australia) and USN radar capabilities declaration. Yes, missile ranges vary with altitude, but logically, unless the 2 aircrafts are seperated by several kilometers of altitude, there would be the same amount of reductions imposed on the missiles. Assuming it is a head on intercept, with little altitude deviation, the baseline ranges of the R-77 and other variants of the R-27 will still outrange the AMRAAM.

 

I'll concede the point that the ability to detect an enemy earlier will yield you the advantage of surprise, and subsequently the ability to maneuver yourself to a position which will deliver favorable odds. However, it is highly doubtful that even with a superior fighting position that the F/A-18E/F would be able to capitalize on it's advantage and launch most of it's AMRAAMs before the Su-30MK begin detecting the F/A-18E/F's.

 

 

 

I do concur that the F/A-18E/F is superior in it's electronics, but only slightly. An AESA compared to a PESA are different, but not to the degree of radical. As for RCS, the F/A-18E/F's estimated RCS is about 1 meter squared, with the regular Su-30MK at 7-10 meter squared. However, recently, Russia has painted a Su-30 with RAM, which reduced it's RCS to about 3 meter squared.

 

Personally, I view the F-35 as utter crap, to put it blunty. It's to me like throwing RAM onto a F-16 and calling it an air-dominance fighter. Really, with the future introduction of the PAK-FA and the recent halt in production of the F-22, the F-35 would be our front line against potential T-50's. Carlo Kopp at Air Power Australia did an analysis regarding how combat between the PAK-FA and the F-22/35 would go. The F-22 would fare far better than the F-35, apparently.

 

Anywho, after revisiting Air Power Australia, I realized they've already did an analysis between F/A-18E/F v.s. Su-30. It's quite interesting really.

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-SuperBug-vs-Flanker.html

 

 

 

Pretty much what we've been arguing no?

 

Dont rely on kopps articles (he supports strong lobies), he starts his arguments with "detailed strategic analysis reveals that" when hes speaking of classified figures or prototypes not yet developed or in service yet. No way he can extrapolate all those "facts". His assertions are ignorant., probably why the military are not hiring him as an advisor. ;)

 

About AESA VS PESA, there's a bigg difference, specially considering the US is the world leader in radar technology today and that AESA allows many other tricks that PESA cant mimic such as LPI and active jamming simultaneously with normal scanning orations, better signal agility etc etc. Russia is still pretty much playing the catch up game.

[RIPTIDE]

Its not in service yet. ETA for service entry with Su-35 and whatever Su the T-50 gives origin to.

lol? Over 1000 R-77's export variants have been delivered to india... with another 1000, reportedly, to be delivered. Albeit not the extended range.,

Edited August 7, 2010 by RIPTIDE

[Pilotasso]

not RVV-AE, RVVAE-SD is a new missile.

[RIPTIDE]

not RVV-AE, RVVAE-SD is a new missile.

Ya. That I agree. I didn't pay attention to hadjuks post on the SD, which you had responded to. :)

[Boberro]

lol? Over 1000 R-77's export variants have been delivered to india... with another 1000, reportedly, to be delivered. Albeit not the extended range.,

 

If I know correctly half of them have been defected ;]

[Pilotasso]

Those problems were supposed to be solved as the manufacturer documented, however the development of the indians own ARH, the astra missile seems to indicate they want better insurances in the future.

[Vault]

Guys you don't have the qualifications, reputation or experience to disregard any of Carlo Kopp's literature.

 

I too used to be a critic of Kopp until I looked into his profile. He has a first class honors in Electrical engineering, he has flown the F-18, he's the lead pilot in an aerobatics display team as well as an internationally respected military advisor on military spec radar. His literature has been published by the RAAF and the USAF!. He is a respected member of IEEE, AIAA and AOC. He is everything you wish you was!.

 

I've a feeling that some of the people on this forum are in the habit of character sniping Carlo Kopp because allot of his publications don't agree with their beliefs.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Vault

[Pilotasso]

he publishes crap. Just take a look on his articles. he speaks of cancelled projects as real hardware in service such as R-77M.

 

No matter how educated a person is, he can still deviate into bias specially when his job is to feed the lobies.

[Vault]

he publishes crap. Just take a look on his articles. he speaks of cancelled projects as real hardware in service such as R-77M.

 

No matter how educated a person is, he can still deviate into bias specially when his job is to feed the lobies.

 

Pilot like I said the blokes forgotten more than you know.

[RIPTIDE]

If I know correctly half of them have been defected ;]

Yes. The Indians got too used to storing the simpler R60's and such. They didn't pay attention to the extra care you need to store more complicated missiles. This isn't just with missiles. Many of their LGB's and other ordance have been ruined by storing them in sh1tholes. India's climate varies a lot... high heat and huge humidity will wreck anything if not cared for.

[ФрогФут]

About AESA VS PESA, there's a bigg difference, specially considering the US is the world leader in radar technology today and that AESA allows many other tricks that PESA cant mimic such as LPI and active jamming simultaneously with normal scanning orations, better signal agility etc etc. Russia is still pretty much playing the catch up game.

And what about US AESA angle limits and A-G capabilites?:D

[Pilotasso]

what about them?

[ФрогФут]

You tell me. I'm on the catch up side of the force.:)

[GGTharos]

With respect to air combat? Very, very doubtful.

According to certain blokes in the RAAF who do fly the hornet and do prepare for the actual missions that Kopp would like to sound like he knows, he has no access to classified information and he apparently features on squadron dartboards.

 

You don't need to look beyond his reported missile ranges for one to get an idea that he's just pushing an agenda. He throws in some (unclassified, publicly known) truth, and 'backs it up' with numbers that are either straight out of internet sources or just hard to check up on ...

 

And then you find a real manual or detailed manufacturer spec and you realize he's full of it.

 

Pilot like I said the blokes forgotten more than you know.

[Vault]

With respect to air combat? Very, very doubtful.

According to certain blokes in the RAAF who do fly the hornet and do prepare for the actual missions that Kopp would like to sound like he knows, he has no access to classified information and he apparently features on squadron dartboards.

 

You don't need to look beyond his reported missile ranges for one to get an idea that he's just pushing an agenda. He throws in some (unclassified, publicly known) truth, and 'backs it up' with numbers that are either straight out of internet sources or just hard to check up on ...

 

And then you find a real manual or detailed manufacturer spec and you realize he's full of it.

 

Kopp's flown the Hornet. Have you?. Do you advise the RAAF on military radar systems and have you had publications published by the RAAF and USAF?. Have you written and published books on radar systems?. Do you have a first class honors in Electrical engineering?. Have you ever received awards for publications on EWR?. No you haven't have you.

 

The only agenda I see is that certain people on this forum are in the habit of character sniping Carlo Kopp because allot of his publications don't agree with their beliefs.

[onehitxzibit]

Kopp's flown the Hornet. Have you?. Do you advise the RAAF on military radar systems and have you had publications published by the RAAF and USAF?. Have you written and published books on radar systems?. Do you have a first class honors in Electrical engineering?. Have you ever received awards for publications on EWR?. No you haven't have you.

 

The only agenda I see is that certain people on this forum are in the habit of character sniping Carlo Kopp because allot of his publications don't agree with their beliefs.

That doesn't stop him from publishing crap just to make people belive him you know. ;)

Actually helps when you think about it. People will see that he has awards and stuff and thus believe him.

Edited August 7, 2010 by onehitxzibit

[Vault]

That doesn't stop him from publishing crap just to make people belive him you know. ;)

Actually helps when you think about it. People will see that he has awards and stuff and thus believe him.

 

Of course it doesn't. I just don't see any evidence to back up the character sniping and I'm almost sure if his publications were crap they would not be endorsed by the RAAF, USAF, IEEE, AIAA and many other instituions.