Groove's OT Dump

[GGTharos]

And maybe that it turns out that you need a whole bunch of titanium to run around at M3.2 for hours on end ... dunno :D

 

And yeah, that too ;)

 

You can go at 2,8 as long as there's fuel, and you can make excursions to above that, but you need to know the time limit.

 

It was G-limeted, but so-what? You ain't gonna do loops at that speed.

 

 

Mostly that their intel sux? :)

[Sov13t]

MiG-25 performed its role perfectly and was a great and cheap solution for a fast recon/intercept craft. It did not come even close to the astronomical figures of the SR-71 project. Russia is not a small country and with it's extensive borders it needs such an interceptor. Which is exactly why we see MiG-31BM still as a vital piece in Russian PVO. SR-71 never achieved and never will what the MiG did however it makes a grest museum piece.

 

You have a much better ground to bash the 27/29...:music_whistling:

 

Oh and I would love to see some proof of any failed attempts of a missile fitted 25/31 to intercept a bogey. Because as far as I know all flights into USSR airspace seized after it entered service.

[GGTharos]

What did the MiG-25 achieve? ... allegedly the SR-71 returned a great deal of data. It got obsoleted when satellites gained enough resolution, and that was pretty much it. The original project, which WAS a high speed interceptor, was completely re-purposed (in fact, the SR-71 isn't even the same airframe).

[Avilator]

Just to add to the Blackbird side of things here, the engineers at Lockheed took an ASG-18 radar by Westinghouse, a GAR-9 missile developed by Hughes, and added their own fire control system. The result: They hit a remote control B-47 at 1,200 feet, while the launching Blackbird was at 75,000 feet and 80 miles away! In 1965!

All in all the system scored a hit on twelve out of thirteen attempts.

All to prove a point. The system was never really ordered, it was just a show of how vulernable the F-111 (then still the TFX) was to a look-down, shoot-down system.

 

On a slightly different topic, I don't think anyone really knows the top speed of the Blackbird. The faster it went, the more power it generated, because of greater compression, and the more power it generated, in an infinite (almost) loop.

[Sov13t]

What did the MiG-25 achieve?

 

It caused a scare in the west. Which is undeniable no matter how simple/inferior the plane really was. Arguably was the reason your beloved F-15 was conceived.

 

It set some records that are still untouched.

 

It laid the foundation for various radar/IRST/datalink systems that were not previously employed in the Soviet air force. Later to be employed in various modifications of the 25 and the 31.

 

There were programs in the Soviet Union that were to use the MiG-25 design as a possible low orbit weapons deployment system/anti-satellite.

 

So, what do you have against the MiG? That it wasn't a Mach 3 jet? Well, officially it wasn't and you know that. Yet it did perform at over Mach 3 above Israel in the Egyptian-Israeli conflict granted it did lose its engines... did it get shot down? Nope.

 

MiG-25 would have not made it into service if it did not meet the requirements set fourth. It met them quite well.

[mikoyan]

The blackbird also had its issues like intakes closing at mach 3 leaving you with asymmetric thrust; that caused crashes; It had lower g limits than the mig-25. That doesn't mean that either one is of lower engineering quality.

The russians had several problems to solve with the new interceptor

1- They needed an aircraft big enough to accommodate a radar immune to jamming from bombers and other types of aircrafts.

2- They were worried about electromagnetic pulses from an atomic blast, so they could not make this new interceptor a high tech gadget as an american jet.

3-they didn't have the transistor like the americans, I believe that this is also an ideological issue, since russians prefer to do their own math instead of using a calculator.

4- They had titanium but not the tools, they also didn't want to mess with designing sophisticated tooling

5-The mission was to take off go fast and launch their missiles, so there was no need for maneuverability.

5- They needed a new interceptor fast an cheap

6- This bird was to be maintained by a trained specialist and several conscripts, some of them with very little education.

 

So what they came up with?

 

They designed a super-powerful and yet simple radar but using vacuum tubes, this ended up being a bless since they are less susceptible to atomic blasts and they don't break as much as transistors. (of that era)

Since titanium was so difficult to handle they used iron instead when it was possible. They also welded several parts of the jet to speed up the building and to make it cheap.

The engines were a carryover from a missile I believe therefore the limitations with speed. The engine was already there so why messing around by designing a new engine if we don't have time?

At the end the russian were able to make the fastest operational interceptor quickly and relatively cheap. How many blackbirds and a-12 were build in the US?

And noooo I'm not saying that the mig is better, it is just that the russian used what was available to them to provide results while the american went above and beyond with less concern about the money, this strategy also gave America fantastic airplanes but at a bigger cost and sophistication, at the end the a-12; a technological marvel was cancelled, while the Russian kept their migs-25.

[GGTharos]

It caused a scare in the west. Which is undeniable no matter how simple/inferior the plane really was. Arguably was the reason your beloved F-15 was conceived.

 

Well, yes, it was built to intercept the XB-70, which caused a scare in the east. The scare regarding the 25 revolved more around SAC's bombers than fighters, AFAIK.

The F-15 was built as an all-around air superiority aircraft, and at that point I don't believe the MiG-25 was a huge issue for it by the time it was being flown ... biggest worry was MiG-23's, 21's, and strategic bombers. The entire aircraft is built to a) go fast to intercept and b) turn.

 

It set some records that are still untouched.

 

It laid the foundation for various radar/IRST/datalink systems that were not previously employed in the Soviet air force. Later to be employed in various modifications of the 25 and the 31.

 

I didn't look into that part particularly deep, I was quite aware of datalinks on the 31 and 27 but I didn't know development on them started on the 25. I can't say I'm surprised though.

 

There were programs in the Soviet Union that were to use the MiG-25 design as a possible low orbit weapons deployment system/anti-satellite.

 

And yet a different aircraft took that cake. In fact, I know the guy who used to maintain that particular eagle (it's in the boneyard as of this year).

 

So, what do you have against the MiG? That it wasn't a Mach 3 jet? Well, officially it wasn't and you know that. Yet it did perform at over Mach 3 above Israel in the Egyptian-Israeli conflict granted it did lose its engines... did it get shot down? Nope.

 

Did it get shot down over Israel? I wouldn't know, but I know it's been shot down on other occasions.

What do you have against SR-71's? That they too have un-touched records, or what?

 

MiG-25 would have not made it into service if it did not meet the requirements set fourth. It met them quite well.

 

Yeah, I don't think anyone complained.

[Groove]

SR-71 never achieved and never will what the MiG did however it makes a grest museum piece.

 

Dude, honestly, do some research before you write such comments.

[Teknetinium]

Dude, honestly, do some research before you write such comments.

 

 

Dude you should do some research your self. There is no airframe that fly as fast as Mig-25 Mig-31 loaded. Only 30 years later when weapons get stored internally.

And its not me or sovjet that have something against Black Bird, I never disrespected American technology the same way GG/pilotasso disrespect Russian. Im sure many would agree whit me on this point.

 

Countries that have their own space programs, that should tell you something about engineering and sciens behind it.

Americans never solved their problem whit nukes being in silos, they tried all kind of solutions but were never able to make a missile that can be lunched from anywhere. SATANA!!½! engineering comrade.

 

Its silly that you still dont except that there is areas where Russians are better and there is areas where Americans are. Looking at it from one side point of view is pointless.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Teknetinium

[Groove]

Comparing Mig-25 with SR-71 shows the quality level of this discussion.

 

Either you don't have a real clue about the SR-71 besides some wikipedia artciles and google pics, or you don't have a real clue about SR-71 AND the MiG-25.

[Groove]

There is no airframe that fly as fast as Mig-25 Mig-31 loaded

 

Here is a link from your favourite aviation knowledge source:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_D-21/M-21

 

 

Americans never solved their problem whit nukes beeing in silos, they made all kinde of shit solutions but were never able to make a missile that can be lunched from anywhere. SATANA!!½!

 

Do you mean R-36 when you talk about "SATANA" ? If you mean the R-36, it's a huge missile, Silo launch only! I bet you meant Topol-M. Do more Wikipedia before posting!

 

As for having ICBM which are mobile launched, USA dropped that in their strategy, not because they had "shit solutions".

[Groove]

Its silly that you still dont except that there is areas where Russians are better and there is areas where Americans are

 

I ACCEPT them, be assured. But opposite to you im not biased and try to bring up valid arguments instead of some stuff you bring up. AK-47 for example was a great soviet invention, or the RS-12M2 ICBM, or the SS-N-21 SSM.

 

You see? RUSSIA STRONG!!!1 but on certain fields.

[MoGas]

In my opinion Russians been batter enginers while Americans been better programmers.. Good example is Mig-25/Mig-31 compere to Blackbird. I think that says it all.

 

And for the sake, both the US and Soviet's are used the German/Austrian engineers too move on with the Space technology and Military Aircraft's on both sides, at this time. And those German/Austrian engineers had and have still, a great impact on all projects until now.

[Teknetinium]

I was compering Blackbird to Mig-25 because of their cooling solutions, we were talking engineering. By using titan gets much more expensive and heavy then vodka Groove, and its cool sulotion, thats my opinion again. Thouse who read this would know that if you didt divide the threads, because Im still on the subject.

 

GG and pilotasso I dont think its as simple as wings on discovery channel, AIRCRAFT number one F-15 :)

Edited August 19, 2010 by Teknetinium

[Groove]

I was compering Blackbird to Mig-25 because of their cooling solutions, we were talking engineering. By using titan gets much more expensive then vodka Groove and its cool sulotion, thats my opinion again.

 

It's high grade alcohol, not Vodka. Having a opinion is okay, but don't bring it into a discussion like they would be facts.

[Teknetinium]

It's high grade alcohol, not Vodka. Having a opinion is okay, but don't bring it into a discussion like they would be facts.

 

 

and what are your facts? topel m and high grade alcohol :)

[MoGas]

GG and pilotasso I dont think its as simple as wings on discovery channel, AIRCRAFT number one F-15 :)

 

well 104(th)-0 says it all....:)

[nscode]

It's high grade alcohol

 

so... it's vodka :)

[Groove]

so... it's vodka :)

 

You wish ;)

 

They didn't flew with Smirnoff.

[Groove]

and what are your facts? topel m and high grade alcohol :)

 

 

OPEL-M and Moskovskaya ?

[Mikoyan89]

I'm a very very big fan of russian aviation,not because their planes are better,because i like them.

Also i like the fact that a poorer country,technologically isolated, with less possibilities,has made very remarkable aircrafts.

Like some of you said,the mig 25 suffered from the incapability of tooling titanium,it was conceived as a cheap interceptor,but still is an impressive aircraft,even today.

I think that when we're talking about aerodynamics and maths ,russians aren't second to nobody else. But in the field of the engines,systems and avionics they always were behind the west.

@ Groove: Don't you remember anything else of the polish migs? i've Searched with google but i haven't found anything

[Mikoyan89]

And for the sake, both the US and Soviet's are used the German/Austrian engineers too move on with the Space technology and Military Aircraft's on both sides, at this time. And those German/Austrian engineers had and have still, a great impact on all projects until now.

:thumbup: Too many people forget this

[bumfire]

Comparing Mig-25 with SR-71 shows the quality level of this discussion.

 

Either you don't have a real clue about the SR-71 besides some wikipedia artciles and google pics, or you don't have a real clue about SR-71 AND the MiG-25.

 

 

Also, there was a fighter variant of the blackbird.

 

YF12 with missiles, not sure if he knew about that ?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_YF-12

 

As you say groove, you just cant compare a blackbird with a 25, I dont think you can compare the blackbird to anything ?

 

 

I love all types of aircraft regardless of who makes em, each country who make AC all at certain times have made great AC, whether it be American, Russian, British, French etc etc.

 

One thing i will say about Russian planes is, they were built to endure a great temp difference, from upto -60oC in winter to upto +60oc in summer, so although Russian aircraft may look rough, its because they were designed to work in all types of weathers and work from airbases/strips that were empty for 9 months of the year.

 

So you have to give the russians a pat on the back for makin aircraft that can take a lot of punishment, try the same thing with NATO aircraft and see how quickly they start to develop problems.

Edited August 19, 2010 by bumfire

[Pilotasso]

Oh man, I miss the times where I could discuss these things with more knoelegeble people. wheres Alfa? Today poeple just post the first thing that comes to their mind without information and divert off topic when confronted. Sometimes I feel like beating the same old dead horse over again. It has been wearing me down... so dont feel surprised I dont come back to re-re-re-re-re-reply against same old ignorant posts...

[nscode]

You wish ;)

 

They didn't flew with Smirnoff.

 

Smirnoff? That is the downgraded export version. You need to do more vodka research:drunk:. There's a traveling version 80+%, more convenient for long trips, you just add water before drinking.. or not :D

Edited August 19, 2010 by nscode