Advice for bloody noob

[sveri]

Hi everybody,

 

i read about the game yesterday and had to buy it after i had so much fun many years ago with one of the first MS Flight Simulators. However, flying this thing is harder than, uhm, making my girlfriend happy :D

 

The Training is interesting to watch with some beer and time, but not useful to learn how to fly.

 

So what i am looking for is something like that guide:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2626185/STICKY_Tutorial_How_to_take_of.html

but with Keyboard Commands in it.

I mean, in the end the guide is like the training it says what to do, but not how to do it, what is not that helpful to me.

 

Ok, long story, short question:

Is there a guide, video, whatever which tells me how to get off with the according keyboard commands inside it?

 

And the second question is, if there are some not to expensive flight sticks/joysticks you can recommend?

 

Thanks in Advance

Sven

[Toadster]

Inside your Black Shark folder, there is a folder called "docs" I believe. In there is everything you need to know about the Shark, from flying to systems operation. There's also some nice keyboard diagrams for you.

 

The in game training videos aren't that bad to get you started, so I highly recommend that you start with the very first one and keep working on it until you're ready for the next one. Again, reading the manual is a must... There are also plenty of people in these forums that will offer their training services to help get you started, and they will probably offer them in this thread.

 

There are also many posts within this forum that can certainly answer some specific questions if you can't find it in the manual.

 

As for your Stick setup, it's personal preference, but at the very minimum, get a stick that has throttle control and twist grip for rudder. However a lot of pilots use a HOTAS setup with rudder pedals and TrackIR to help further their immersion into this great and complicated sim.

 

Good luck and my best piece of advice to you: don't get discouraged! It's hard to learn how to fly the Shark well, but it will be rewarding so enjoy this sim anyway you can. It's up to you to to decide a what level you want to be proficient at...

 

S!

[sveri]

First of all, thanks for your advice :-)

 

Inside your Black Shark folder, there is a folder called "docs" I believe. In there is everything you need to know about the Shark, from flying to systems operation.

This is what my problem is, i found all the docs and read inbetween a lot of it, but they are not connected to each other, so when i look into the manual for some procedure i can read what to do (like:

 

Beim Nachtflug schalten Sie nach Bedarf folgende Beleuchtung ein (* = rechtes Panel):

“ПОДСВЕТ ПУЛЬТЫ” COCKPIT LIGHTING PANEL (Instrumentenbeleuch-

tung) *

“ПОДСТВЕТ АГР ПКП” ADI SAI (ADI und HSI Beleuchtung) *

“АНО КОД” NAV LIGHTS (Navigationslichter) auf dem Overhead-Panel

“КОНТУР ОГНИ” BLADE TIP LIGHTS (Rotorblattspitzen-Lichter) *

“СТРОЕВ ОГНИ” FORM LIGHT (Formationslichter) *

“ПРОБЛЕСК МАЯК” ANTI-COOL BEACON (Anti-Kollisionslichter) *

“ПОСАД ФАРЫ” LDG LIGHT

")

But, how do i do that in the simulation?

Do i really have to go for the keyboard manual and look for each order i have to follow for the corresponding key?

 

How did other ppl learn which keys to press to get that Black Shark into the air?

[Oscar]

You might want to view these as well..........especially the Black Shark Notes 1 - 5.

 

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=wagmatt#g/u

[CAT_101st]

Don't try to use the key board. the cocpit is clickable. Just learn the pit and click the switch's. It will be much easer than using the keyboard commands.

The X52 joy is top pick for the KA-50 right now. and the price has ben droping omn it as well.

[PhoenixBvo]

I hardly know any of those keyboard combinations at all. And yet consider myself quite proficient as a BS sim pilot. This will be true for most of the people in these forums.

The trick? Two things:

1. HOTAS programmed with the most important functions. You can put lots of them in and still remember them because of the intuitive layout and distinctive switches. There are lots of ready-made profiles for all the common HOTAS setups available.
   A good starter setup would be the Saitek X-52(Pro), a more advanced option would be the CH Products Fighterstick/Pro Throttle and Pro pedals combination. Potentially the best thing out there now is the Thrustmaster Cougar with custom U2-Nxt gimbals and Hall sensors. That requires a lot of money and DIY work though.
   
2. TrackIR 4/5 or Freetrack. These headtrackers let you quickly and naturally view all around you and enable you to reach all the switches in the virtual cockpit with your mouse. No learning hundreds of key combinations, you just remember what the actual switches are for.
   

Its important to have combat and other time critical functions on your stick/throttle, because looking for a switch still requires some time and you can't keep your eyes on the target. But a personally customized HOTAS profile in combination with headtracker has really extended the realism of this sim beyond anything could have imagined ten years ago.

[sveri]

Don't try to use the key board. the cocpit is clickable. Just learn the pit and click the switch's. It will be much easer than using the keyboard commands.

Ah ok, well, i come frome a more unix like background and like to do everything with the keyboard, this feels more natural to me, if i only compare the time i need to click something or to press two or three keys i get a headache when thinking about clicking :D

But if this is the way to do it, then i'll do it.

 

The X52 joy is top pick for the KA-50 right now. and the price has ben droping omn it as well.

Well, the non-pro X52 costs around 100€ right now, i dont know if i want to spend that much, just to find out one week later that i dont like this game.

 

So my next question is, can i play this one for some time keyboard only? Just to find out if i am willing to spend that much on a "joystick"?

 

Or should i at least buy a cheap one cause the keyboard control sucks at all?

[ShalashakaDS]

Even a cheap stick will make your flying experience much more enjoyable, not that it will be impossible to fly only on keyboard, but it will make your life really hard, specially if you plan doing more than one thing at once, like flying and fighting.

[Zachios]

Watch the video instructions a few times and then try it out yourself. I found watching a few vids on youtube and following along in the cockpit at the same time helped a lot, and then went back to the tutorial videos for the right procedure once i had an idea of what i was clicking.

 

I'd have to agree with above - dont bother with the keyboard. the most clicking you'll do in the beginning is the startup procedure and then everything else in flight is really in front of you on the dash or on the joystick buttons. I have the Saitek x52 and have plenty of room for what i find i need most in flight. The joystick itself has plenty of room for all the weapon commands you'll need (and there are a lot) and the throttle portion has just enough room flight control. only time i find i really use the keyboard is when i crash and need a new ka-50.

[power5]

I used a twist grip microsoft joystick for a while till it went bad. Then used a Saitek Cyborg and liked it better, till it went bad. Then stepped up to a logitech g940. So much nicer than the stick only configurations to me. Next I want TrackIR5 and then a touchbuddy setup. Not sure how touch buddy works with the dials though.

 

Flying is the hardest part of this learning curve. Either use the flight director button (far right blue AP button) or use the trimmer any time you change A/C attitude. Always fly with the bank, pitch, heading AP buttons on and the alt hold if you want to stay at a certain level. Not sure why these are even buttons since I find it impossible to fly the chopper with them off. There is a Keyboard shortcut tool tip mod. This helps when you put the mouse over a switch in the cockpit, it tells you the KB shortcut. I also got a Keyboard layout with all the shortcuts on the corresponding keys. This paper is very nice to have next to my monitor for quick checks. No idea where I found it on this site though. Someone has it someplace.

 

Found one. Cant view it at work though

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o197/SkidMARK11/BlackShark_KeyboardLayout.jpg&imgrefurl=http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o197/SkidMARK11/%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DBlackShark_KeyboardLayout.jpg&usg=__HXOpgTpr6uzpI0FetSpNP6lqedc=&h=312&w=1023&sz=96&hl=en&start=20&zoom=0&tbnid=wo6L7FmB6R347M:&tbnh=46&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dblack%2Bshark%2Bkeyboard%2Blayout%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26biw%3D1042%26bih%3D714%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=657&vpy=389&dur=1631&hovh=46&hovw=150&tx=76&ty=40&ei=_l59TPfsA8m_nAe07NGWCw&oei=kF59TPTiBIKcnweZ9cn3AQ&esq=17&page=2&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:20

Edited August 31, 2010 by power5

[ChromeWasp]

my 2c

 

imo center sprung joysticks are virtually useless

 

Saitek AV8R with main spring removed is very cheap and good (lots of buttons two throttles and reliable)

 

MS SideWinder Force Feedback 2 is the king of joysticks - look on ebay

 

Antitorque / rudder in BS is always a problem whatever your setup - best solution is to double tap Z or X to reset unwanted rudder trim

 

TrackIR + Mouse for cockpit is a nightmare because you have to hold your head still - better solution for clicking is to map cockpit panel views to convenient buttons - this is fast and reliable with mouse as view will be stable

 

but TrackIR for flying and HMS is priceless

 

My current favorite approach is to never use the mouse - I mapped all important command to sidewinder buttons + keyboard numpad area

 

this way I can keep right hand on stick all the time and position keyboard to left of joystick - and I can work much faster than mouse clicking

plus low frequency commands (such as G landing gear) are still in easy reach

 

the 1.0.2 patch fixes many bugs - the tutorials are no longer available after the patch - they are not much good anyway

 

this helicopter is not easy to fly - especially with low resolution terrain and no g-forces to feel in your body

 

I think a real ka50 would be 10 times easier to fly than this simulation

 

I tried an X52 once and it is just a big spring - totally unrealistic and unusable (and dangerous if you then fly for real)

[power5]

I did not know there were views for the cockpit panels? Where is that in the controls list?

[sveri]

Thanks for all the Tips, i bought a Saitek Cyborg X to get things started, watched one of the vids i found and even managed to get off into the air.

Feels cool, if not to say great, now i will try to read more and get a feeling for that BS :-)

 

I am sure i come back to ask for more.

[159th_Viper]

I did not know there were views for the cockpit panels? Where is that in the controls list?

 

Doc folder in your main DCS:BS directory. Key-commands as per the .pdf files - will find commands towards the back of the doc under 'View Cockpit'.

[power5]

I had a cyborg X before my g940. Hope yours lasts longer than mine <1 year. Button 2 lost its spring back feel. Twist started going haywire making the BS uncontrollable. I guess I could have deactivated that axis in the controls, but never thought of that.

 

Viper, I see the commands, but which are for the panels? Or is it just trial and error to find the right views which give the proper view of the panels and switches I need?

[PhoenixBvo]

my 2c

 

imo center sprung joysticks are virtually useless

 

I tried an X52 once and it is just a big spring - totally unrealistic and unusable (and dangerous if you then fly for real)

 

Hi ChromeWasp, everybody is entitled to their opinion of course, but I can't help but to strongly disagree with you on this point.

In my humble opinion any commercial force feedback product available to the consumer is very far from being realistic and most of them have a rather short lifespan. Springloaded sticks aren't that unrealistic at all, considering that you're flying-by-wire. A lot of modern a/c have similar passive sticks with only a stick shaker added for stall warning.

I have flown the Simona research simulator at Delft University of Technology, which has hydraulic-actuated haptic controls, and the difference with any commercial force feedback is HUGE.

Smooth and solid. It feels like there is a serious piece of mechanism hanging on that yoke. That you're actually moving something around. Of course with all the proper aerodynamic forces. Haptic feedback is ten times faster than eye sight, putting high demands on the simulator to avoid a feeling of lag.

With the plastic toys on the other hand, you can generally feel the steps of the motors and the construction is not stiff enough to accurately simulate haptic feedback. Add to that the very noticeable lag and lack of high frequency response and I can only say that it is much more of a distraction to me than an added sense of realism.

 

Just my 2c...

[Huckle]

Don't try to use the key board. the cocpit is clickable. Just learn the pit and click the switch's. It will be much easer than using the keyboard commands.

The X52 joy is top pick for the KA-50 right now. and the price has ben droping omn it as well.

 

Ignore the post quoted.

 

If you're doing a full startup, clicking is easier than remembering three key-presses for each function for things that will only be used once in a flight.

But for combat, and regular use, such as ABRIS, memorise a number of the keys. You don't want to have to look down, and mouse over a tiny switch while you're being shot at during a strafing run or similar.

 

MSFFB2, is THE stick for BS. It's at its best with an added throttle and rudder pedals (plus TIR, hell- just post your credit card to an online store), but in terms of feel and trimming, there's no real competition.

 

BTW, the Tutorial from simhq (which I've recommended to people before) does have the key commands in it.

[ChromeWasp]

Hi ChromeWasp, everybody is entitled to their opinion of course, but I can't help but to strongly disagree with you on this point.

In my humble opinion any commercial force feedback product available to the consumer is very far from being realistic and most of them have a rather short lifespan. Springloaded sticks aren't that unrealistic at all, considering that you're flying-by-wire. A lot of modern a/c have similar passive sticks with only a stick shaker added for stall warning.

I have flown the Simona research simulator at Delft University of Technology, which has hydraulic-actuated haptic controls, and the difference with any commercial force feedback is HUGE.

Smooth and solid. It feels like there is a serious piece of mechanism hanging on that yoke. That you're actually moving something around. Of course with all the proper aerodynamic forces. Haptic feedback is ten times faster than eye sight, putting high demands on the simulator to avoid a feeling of lag.

With the plastic toys on the other hand, you can generally feel the steps of the motors and the construction is not stiff enough to accurately simulate haptic feedback. Add to that the very noticeable lag and lack of high frequency response and I can only say that it is much more of a distraction to me than an added sense of realism.

 

Just my 2c...

 

there are some limitations to ms-ffb2

 

but the ability to hold the stick in one position and trim off the forces is vital and quite realistic

 

but if you analyze the force inputs required to fly BS with a center sprung stick versus ffb2 stick you will see they are totally unnatural - at times even 100% opposite of real life forces

 

for example:

 

IRL moving a stick from left deflection to center position would require a force to the right

 

but with X52 etc. you would need to apply a LEFT force <= spring force

 

that is a big difference: LEFT versus RIGHT !

 

if I hold the TRIM on my FFB2 it becomes a normal, sensitive, non-centering stick - allowing me to fly using finger pressure - again like real life

 

re: simona - sounds good but real Ka50 doesn't feature haptic feedback

 

ms ffb2 is the closest you can get to a realistic stick experience without spending money

 

the irony is that if you take a cheap-but-good joystick, like my AV8R, and switch the ridiculous center spring for an adjustable friction device

you have a very nice and usable joystick - sticks like this were available 20 years ago - now they are designed to sell, not to fly

Edited September 1, 2010 by ChromeWasp

[PhoenixBvo]

re: simona - sounds good but real Ka50 doesn't feature haptic feedback

 

Sure it does, :) we are talking about any feeling you get back from the stick. You can model a pure spring, damper or only friction or a combination thereof and it would still be a passive controller. The point is the accuracy of commercial products, or the lack thereof...

 

But where have you read that the Ka-50 is pure fly-by-wire? The fact that it uses hydraulic servos doesn't mean there is no mechanical link between the swash plate and the cockpit controls. I highly doubt that there isn't. The B747 also still has mechanical links augmented by hydraulic servo actuators. The cost of providing enough redundancy and reliability for a pure fly-by-wire control system is very high in terms of both money and system weight... Plus pilots don't like the lack of feeling :smilewink:

[PhoenixBvo]

However, you are right about the incorrect trim simulation in the specific case of the Ka-50. That may cause the wrong motion range around the neutral point. But still, if you trim your ffb2 stick, it attains a new neutral point. With a spring-loaded stick you have to move it back to centre, that the extra operation required, but after that you'll have recentering forces around the trim position in both the spring-loaded and ffb2 cases. (Or is that not the case? I have no RL heli experience and Simona is mainly a fixed-wing simulator) I have trouble believing your example that in a RL helicopter you'd have to apply a force in the direction of the trim centre to move the cyclic from a deflection back to that trim centre. That would mean a very unstable situation: if you'd take your hand of the stick for an instant, the cyclic would deflect! That can't be the case, right?

[ChromeWasp]

But where have you read that the Ka-50 is pure fly-by-wire

I wasn't sure on that point

 

if you'd take your hand of the stick for an instant, the cyclic would deflect! That can't be the case, right?

it means if you take your hand off the stick it will mostly stay where you left it

 

take a center sprung joystick

deflect it fully left

now slowly return it to center

and ask yourself - are you applying a force left or right?

 

you will see you need to apply a force to the left that is less than, or equal to, the spring force

 

when I bank left in my glider I move the stick left with a left force

when I center I move the stick right with a right force

with an X52 you move the stick right with LESS LEFT FORCE

 

of course there are centering forces in real aircraft

 

but they tend to reduce as you center whereas X52 force doesn't reduce

 

(and they are very small unless you are flying very fast or doing aeros)

 

in fact most control mechanics in real aircraft are designed specifally to REDUCE centering forces as they result in pilot fatigue and fatal PIOs

 

if real aircraft were controlled with an X52 there would be a lot of accidents!

Edited September 1, 2010 by ChromeWasp

[EtherealN]

when I bank left in my glider I move the stick left with a left force

when I center I move the stick right with a right force

 

In which regimes?

This only applies to direct control aircraft in the lower velocity envelopes, in my opinion, since at higher speeds you will have to fight against the "centering force" of the air moving over your control surfaces.

 

When flying close to or at (or above, that's "fun") Vne you do have to fight to keep any kind of deflection on your control surfaces.

 

That aside, I agree.

[power5]

What is Vne?

 

I have a lot more fun flying the BS with my G940 than I did with my center sprung. I should have tried removing the spring to see if I could have gotten a deader stick feeling like the 940 provides. Would have been cheaper to buy pedals than the 940 by far.

[topdog]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds

Check out the gauge in top-right and the description given.